Fuel Policy:"company fuel" Survey please assist
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Fuel Policy:"company fuel" Survey please assist
I am a 737 pilot
With no weather requirements at destination my company usually plans 60 mins minimum on landing but you are still legal to reduce to 30 mins (as this is the regulatory minmimum in my country) This often occurs and we land with say 45 mins.
I am trying to research other countries and airlines.
(In another country and airline I worked in the rule was you had to have another airport to divert to regardless of destination weather.)
So my question is what is your minmium fuel policy? Thanks for your help
Edited added
What I am trying to find out is what your airline/country regs state in regards to ALTERNATE fuel in "good weather".
(My operation allows a flight to any single runway airport with no alternate fuel which I now find is very different to the JAR's!)
With no weather requirements at destination my company usually plans 60 mins minimum on landing but you are still legal to reduce to 30 mins (as this is the regulatory minmimum in my country) This often occurs and we land with say 45 mins.
I am trying to research other countries and airlines.
(In another country and airline I worked in the rule was you had to have another airport to divert to regardless of destination weather.)
So my question is what is your minmium fuel policy? Thanks for your help
Edited added
What I am trying to find out is what your airline/country regs state in regards to ALTERNATE fuel in "good weather".
(My operation allows a flight to any single runway airport with no alternate fuel which I now find is very different to the JAR's!)
Last edited by gimpgimp; 25th Aug 2006 at 03:16.
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As I do only international flying, the fuel requirements are...
Destination.
Alternate. (always required)
Contingency. (5% minimum of destination fuel)
Holding. (the usual 30 minutes at the alternate, at 1500agl)
Taxi.
Any other fuel the Commander thinks is required, with no (within reason) limitation.
NB.
Flight planning for a re-release enroute is possible, to either minimize fuel uplift at expensive outstations, or to provide for more payload uplift.
This is strictly at the Commanders discretion.
In addition, on some sectors, fuel tankering is done, payload permitting.
So far as I know, no Commander has ever been called on the carpet for uplifting excessive fuel.
Nor, IMO, should they be...again, withing reason.
Destination.
Alternate. (always required)
Contingency. (5% minimum of destination fuel)
Holding. (the usual 30 minutes at the alternate, at 1500agl)
Taxi.
Any other fuel the Commander thinks is required, with no (within reason) limitation.
NB.
Flight planning for a re-release enroute is possible, to either minimize fuel uplift at expensive outstations, or to provide for more payload uplift.
This is strictly at the Commanders discretion.
In addition, on some sectors, fuel tankering is done, payload permitting.
So far as I know, no Commander has ever been called on the carpet for uplifting excessive fuel.
Nor, IMO, should they be...again, withing reason.
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Gimpgimp
PM me with email address and I will send you a copy of my company's rules on this (I do 737 domestic and regional not a zillion mile east of your registered location).
PM me with email address and I will send you a copy of my company's rules on this (I do 737 domestic and regional not a zillion mile east of your registered location).
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Alternate fuel in cavok?
Thanks .....just wanted an answer to the alternate in cavok bit part of your fuel policy but 411a confirm you always carry 30 holding as well as alternate!
It will help if I can have the airline you fly for? pm it if you want to keep it private.
It will help if I can have the airline you fly for? pm it if you want to keep it private.
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We normally carry alternate+reserve+contingency fuel but in certain circumstances (very good weather forecast, flight less than 6 hours and two independent runways at destination) we can ditch the alternate fuel.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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To save you a lot of PMs you can download the 'rules' for European operations under JAR at http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/563242.pdf - it is a large file but fuel planning policy is at 1.255 on page 1-D-4.
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You don't always need alternate fuel under JAR Ops, depending on destination weather and rwy availablity. In some circumstances you can despatch with 15 mins manoeuvre fuel instead of alternate.
As said above, it's all in JAR Ops and worth a read any time you are bored stiff!!
As said above, it's all in JAR Ops and worth a read any time you are bored stiff!!
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Yes, gimpgimp, always carry alternate plus holding fuel, regardless of the reported/forecast destination weather.
This is a good policy mainly because of the destinations dispatched to have limited forecasting facilities....or, to put it another way, are often not even close to the truth, upon arrival.
Extra gravy is always a good idea in these cases.
This is a good policy mainly because of the destinations dispatched to have limited forecasting facilities....or, to put it another way, are often not even close to the truth, upon arrival.
Extra gravy is always a good idea in these cases.
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I'm with 411A on that. On three occasions in my flying life the Met forecast has caused me grief by being TOTALLY wrong, once forcing a diversion in IMC in a Chipmunk and nearly running out of fuel. Second getting past PNR in an Aztec to find the front arrived 6 hours early and destination (Vagar
)was below limits, and almost having to write off 2 of Her Majesty's Harriers due to an unforecast deterioration from 'Blue' to 'Red' in 20 minutes at Stavangar requiring the rapid 'invention' of a Tacan approach for me and my wingman.
Do NOT trust a forecast.
)was below limits, and almost having to write off 2 of Her Majesty's Harriers due to an unforecast deterioration from 'Blue' to 'Red' in 20 minutes at Stavangar requiring the rapid 'invention' of a Tacan approach for me and my wingman. Do NOT trust a forecast.
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My Company's rule for 73 classic :
- Destination
- 45 min. holding ( 15min. of it called Company Fuel)
- alternate
- APU & taxy (205 kg)
NB : the alternate + 30 min hold must not less than 2600 kg
there are many reason to have alternate + 30 min. Gimp !
not only weather
- Destination
- 45 min. holding ( 15min. of it called Company Fuel)
- alternate
- APU & taxy (205 kg)
NB : the alternate + 30 min hold must not less than 2600 kg
there are many reason to have alternate + 30 min. Gimp !
not only weather
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Thanks for the repiles
I am aware of all the reasons for carrying extra fuel. (I have been airline flying for nearly 30 years and am in training.)
What I am trying to find out is what your airline/country regs state in regards to ALTERNATE fuel in "good weather".
(My operation allows a flight to any single runway airport with no alternate fuel which I now find is very different to the JAR's!)
I searched the JAR-OPS reference provided (thanks) and found exactly what I wanted JAR-OPS 1.295(b)
(c) An operator must select at least one
destination alternate for each IFR flight unless:
(1) Both:
(i) The duration of the planned
flight from take-off to landing does not
exceed 6 hours; and
(ii) Two separate runways are
available and useable at the destination and
the appropriate weather reports or forecasts
for the destination aerodrome, or any
combination thereof, indicate that for the
period from one hour before until one hour
after the expected time of arrival at
destination, the ceiling will be at least 2 000
ft or circling height + 500 ft, whichever is
greater, and the visibility will be at least 5
km. (see IEM OPS 1.295(c)(1)(ii)); or
(2) The destination is isolated and no
adequate destination alternate exists.
Now to look at the FAA rules.
I am aware of all the reasons for carrying extra fuel. (I have been airline flying for nearly 30 years and am in training.)
What I am trying to find out is what your airline/country regs state in regards to ALTERNATE fuel in "good weather".
(My operation allows a flight to any single runway airport with no alternate fuel which I now find is very different to the JAR's!)
I searched the JAR-OPS reference provided (thanks) and found exactly what I wanted JAR-OPS 1.295(b)
(c) An operator must select at least one
destination alternate for each IFR flight unless:
(1) Both:
(i) The duration of the planned
flight from take-off to landing does not
exceed 6 hours; and
(ii) Two separate runways are
available and useable at the destination and
the appropriate weather reports or forecasts
for the destination aerodrome, or any
combination thereof, indicate that for the
period from one hour before until one hour
after the expected time of arrival at
destination, the ceiling will be at least 2 000
ft or circling height + 500 ft, whichever is
greater, and the visibility will be at least 5
km. (see IEM OPS 1.295(c)(1)(ii)); or
(2) The destination is isolated and no
adequate destination alternate exists.
Now to look at the FAA rules.
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FAA rules
FAA rules make no mention of two runways?
Looks like 45 mins at normal cruising speed.
135.223 IFR: Alternate airport requirements.
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft in IFR conditions unless it carries enough fuel (considering weather reports or forecasts or any combination of them) to—
(1) Complete the flight to the first airport of intended landing;
(2) Fly from that airport to the alternate airport; and
(3) Fly after that for 45 minutes at normal cruising speed or, for helicopters, fly after that for 30 minutes at normal cruising speed.
(b) Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not apply if part 97 of this chapter prescribes a standard instrument approach procedure for the first airport of intended landing and, for at least one hour before and after the estimated time of arrival, the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate that—
(1) The ceiling will be at least 1,500 feet above the lowest circling approach MDA; or
(2) If a circling instrument approach is not authorized for the airport, the ceiling will be at least 1,500 feet above the lowest published minimum or 2,000 feet above the airport elevation, whichever is higher; and
(3) Visibility for that airport is forecast to be at least three miles, or two miles more than the lowest applicable visibility minimums, whichever is the greater, for the instrument approach procedure to be used at the destination airport.
[Doc. No. 16097, 43 FR 46783, Oct. 10, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 135–20, 51 FR 40710, Nov. 7, 1986]
Looks like 45 mins at normal cruising speed.
135.223 IFR: Alternate airport requirements.
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft in IFR conditions unless it carries enough fuel (considering weather reports or forecasts or any combination of them) to—
(1) Complete the flight to the first airport of intended landing;
(2) Fly from that airport to the alternate airport; and
(3) Fly after that for 45 minutes at normal cruising speed or, for helicopters, fly after that for 30 minutes at normal cruising speed.
(b) Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not apply if part 97 of this chapter prescribes a standard instrument approach procedure for the first airport of intended landing and, for at least one hour before and after the estimated time of arrival, the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate that—
(1) The ceiling will be at least 1,500 feet above the lowest circling approach MDA; or
(2) If a circling instrument approach is not authorized for the airport, the ceiling will be at least 1,500 feet above the lowest published minimum or 2,000 feet above the airport elevation, whichever is higher; and
(3) Visibility for that airport is forecast to be at least three miles, or two miles more than the lowest applicable visibility minimums, whichever is the greater, for the instrument approach procedure to be used at the destination airport.
[Doc. No. 16097, 43 FR 46783, Oct. 10, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 135–20, 51 FR 40710, Nov. 7, 1986]
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IATA IOSO Manual
DSP 6.4.4 The Operator shall have a system of operational control to ensure that when a destination
alternate airport is not required, the aircraft carries sufficient fuel and oil to:
i) Turbojet Operations:
Fly to the destination and additionally fly 30 minutes at holding speed at 1,500 feet above the planned destination airport and to have an additional amount of fuel sufficient to provide for the increased consumption on the occurrence of other operational contingencies. If the destination airport is isolated, sufficient fuel to fly to the destination and thereafter for a period of two hours at normal cruise consumption.
So no mention of two runways.
So does "other operational contingencies" include single runway ops?
My company does not think so but many of our pilots do.
Looking for more feedback please.
alternate airport is not required, the aircraft carries sufficient fuel and oil to:
i) Turbojet Operations:
Fly to the destination and additionally fly 30 minutes at holding speed at 1,500 feet above the planned destination airport and to have an additional amount of fuel sufficient to provide for the increased consumption on the occurrence of other operational contingencies. If the destination airport is isolated, sufficient fuel to fly to the destination and thereafter for a period of two hours at normal cruise consumption.
So no mention of two runways.
So does "other operational contingencies" include single runway ops?
My company does not think so but many of our pilots do.
Looking for more feedback please.
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New Zealand rules
If Destination ceiling 1000ft above landing minima and Vis 5km or greater. You can use a close alternate, but must have minimun of 60 mins fuel on arrival at destination..
So you must always have somewhere else to go, at flight planning stage. Once airborne it is the crews decision to keep an alternate or not.
So you must always have somewhere else to go, at flight planning stage. Once airborne it is the crews decision to keep an alternate or not.
