Takeoff Alternate Requirements
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Takeoff Alternate Requirements
What are the air carrier rules, FAR 121 and JAR, and the OpSpec requirements with regard to how far a takeoff alternate may be from the departure airport?
I know US FAR 121 specifies that for two engine aircraft, the takeoff alternate be no further than 1 hour, still air, at one-engine inoperative cruise speed. Are the OpSpec's more restrictive? Are airline policies more restrictive?
The reason I'm asking is that a recent safety audit recommended that our pilots (corporate FAR 91) specifiy a takeoff alternate, if required, which is no further than 30 minutes, still air, at one-engine inoperative cruise speed.
This seems rather restrictive to me, but I may be wrong?
It's not that I don't think it's a good idea, but it could impact our operations from our US midwest base.
Thanks in advance!
Rich Boll
Wichita, KS
I know US FAR 121 specifies that for two engine aircraft, the takeoff alternate be no further than 1 hour, still air, at one-engine inoperative cruise speed. Are the OpSpec's more restrictive? Are airline policies more restrictive?
The reason I'm asking is that a recent safety audit recommended that our pilots (corporate FAR 91) specifiy a takeoff alternate, if required, which is no further than 30 minutes, still air, at one-engine inoperative cruise speed.
This seems rather restrictive to me, but I may be wrong?
It's not that I don't think it's a good idea, but it could impact our operations from our US midwest base.
Thanks in advance!
Rich Boll
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The 60 minute - one engine - still air - rule is pretty much universal. I've seen it at several airlines in the US, Europe, Canada and Asia.
Although I say it's universal, there are variations. For example, one airline that I am familiar with states the following....
"....take off alternate of 424 miles for the B777...380 miles for the Airbus A321...437 miles for the B767..."
Interestingly, this is about 1 hours flying time on one engine.
Could your company's FOM / OPS Specs require a lesser distance? Absolutlely! An FOM can always - and quite easily - be more stringent than the appropriate countries regulations. But, you are giving up something in dispatch reliability.
I'd be interested to know what the "Audit" recommended about enroute diversion airports. Do they recommend the same 30 minute criteria? That could make trans-ocean, or international operations difficult. And, it could certainly affect domestic operations.
That 30 minute requirement - depending on your drift-down stratagy - could put you in a difficult position if traversing 114 degrees West.
Although I say it's universal, there are variations. For example, one airline that I am familiar with states the following....
"....take off alternate of 424 miles for the B777...380 miles for the Airbus A321...437 miles for the B767..."
Interestingly, this is about 1 hours flying time on one engine.
Could your company's FOM / OPS Specs require a lesser distance? Absolutlely! An FOM can always - and quite easily - be more stringent than the appropriate countries regulations. But, you are giving up something in dispatch reliability.
I'd be interested to know what the "Audit" recommended about enroute diversion airports. Do they recommend the same 30 minute criteria? That could make trans-ocean, or international operations difficult. And, it could certainly affect domestic operations.
That 30 minute requirement - depending on your drift-down stratagy - could put you in a difficult position if traversing 114 degrees West.
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What about ETOPS aircraft/operators?
Lets say that the aircraft takes off on an ETOPS flight with 180 min diversion time. Are they still required to have the takeoff alternate (if needed) within 60 min or can they use 180 min?
Lets say that the aircraft takes off on an ETOPS flight with 180 min diversion time. Are they still required to have the takeoff alternate (if needed) within 60 min or can they use 180 min?
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Safety auditors can make recommendations on pretty much anything, but it is usual for them to provide some justification. The simple fact is that it is merely a recommendation, not a finding, so your company does not have to comply with it. They can simply respond to it with "your recommendation is noted" and do nothing more.
About the only problem with this is that, especially in today's litigious society, if something untoward ever happened as the result of ignoring the recommendation, the auditors could - and would - say "we told you so". And then watch the lawsuits fly!
So, basically, if your company feels that they have a safety case that allows them to ignore the recommendation, they'll be relying on it in any resultant legal action.
About the only problem with this is that, especially in today's litigious society, if something untoward ever happened as the result of ignoring the recommendation, the auditors could - and would - say "we told you so". And then watch the lawsuits fly!
So, basically, if your company feels that they have a safety case that allows them to ignore the recommendation, they'll be relying on it in any resultant legal action.
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Hotrod
Same rules apply even for ETOPS flights but times are different. Our busses are 1 hour at OEI cruise, including 330 if it's a non ETOPS aircraft, or operating from USA.
A330 ETOPS aircraft and A340 are 2 hours at OEI cruise
Also as noted above, check minmas. Our bus fleet all drop from Cat 3C to Cat 3A minima when OEI.
Minimas also different when operating from USA/CAN
Regards Expat
Same rules apply even for ETOPS flights but times are different. Our busses are 1 hour at OEI cruise, including 330 if it's a non ETOPS aircraft, or operating from USA.
A330 ETOPS aircraft and A340 are 2 hours at OEI cruise
Also as noted above, check minmas. Our bus fleet all drop from Cat 3C to Cat 3A minima when OEI.
Minimas also different when operating from USA/CAN
Regards Expat
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Airfields
Surely, there are a plenty of airports relevant to ETOPS operations where there simply are no nearby alternates? Easter Island is definitely one runway only... Midway, Ascension Island etc. etc. How does one get off from a runway if the nearest other runway is hours of flight away?
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Thanks to everyone that replied
Thanks for the information.
Our company is a US FAR 91 corporate operation and therefore not subject to OpSpecs. We do try to adhere to industry "best practices", hence the audit and the IS-BAO certification.
The problem I have seen is that some of the recommendations from the audit team and the IS-BAO staff are somewhat questionable with regard to a basis in regulation or operating procedures in the industry. The 30 minute rule for takeoff alternate is an example. It's not a bad idea, but should limit ourselves beyond what the FAR 121 carriers require? That's why I wanted to know whether OpSpecs typically require less than one hour still air distance with OEI? From what I'm hearing, this is not the case.
As a FAR 91 operator, we're not bound by the same operating rules as a FAR 121 or 135 operator holding out for common carriage. But I strongly believe that adherance to the 121 and 135 regulations is the fiirst line of risk managment and the base line for best practices in the industry. It can be prudent to go beyond these regulations, as the OpSpecs occasionaly do.
Thanks again for your help. I will continue to monitor this thread for more input.
Best regards,
Richard Boll
Wichita, KS
Our company is a US FAR 91 corporate operation and therefore not subject to OpSpecs. We do try to adhere to industry "best practices", hence the audit and the IS-BAO certification.
The problem I have seen is that some of the recommendations from the audit team and the IS-BAO staff are somewhat questionable with regard to a basis in regulation or operating procedures in the industry. The 30 minute rule for takeoff alternate is an example. It's not a bad idea, but should limit ourselves beyond what the FAR 121 carriers require? That's why I wanted to know whether OpSpecs typically require less than one hour still air distance with OEI? From what I'm hearing, this is not the case.
As a FAR 91 operator, we're not bound by the same operating rules as a FAR 121 or 135 operator holding out for common carriage. But I strongly believe that adherance to the 121 and 135 regulations is the fiirst line of risk managment and the base line for best practices in the industry. It can be prudent to go beyond these regulations, as the OpSpecs occasionaly do.
Thanks again for your help. I will continue to monitor this thread for more input.
Best regards,
Richard Boll
Wichita, KS
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chornedsnorkack
You are correct, there are airports where you will not find an alternate close enough to use as a take-off alternate. But, when this is the case, then I think you'll find that there are seperate rules in force with regards to wx minima for take-off, such that take-off is not allowed if the weather is forecast to go below your OEI minima in case of a return.
This being the case then you would only depart in conditions that did not require a take-off alternate.
The above is just my bit of logic and digging back into the recesses of my mind, as we currently don't operate to any isolated destinations.
Regards Expat
You are correct, there are airports where you will not find an alternate close enough to use as a take-off alternate. But, when this is the case, then I think you'll find that there are seperate rules in force with regards to wx minima for take-off, such that take-off is not allowed if the weather is forecast to go below your OEI minima in case of a return.
This being the case then you would only depart in conditions that did not require a take-off alternate.
The above is just my bit of logic and digging back into the recesses of my mind, as we currently don't operate to any isolated destinations.
Regards Expat
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For us, yep, we take wind into consideration.
Also take overweight landing into consideration if the aircraft can't dump. It can be ignored, obviously, as a great number of aircraft will be over weight for landing when they have just departed. A330 can not dump, A340 can.
Regards Expat
Also take overweight landing into consideration if the aircraft can't dump. It can be ignored, obviously, as a great number of aircraft will be over weight for landing when they have just departed. A330 can not dump, A340 can.
Regards Expat
The JAR requirements are here:http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/563242.pdf
Look for 1.295 Selection of aerodromes
Look for 1.295 Selection of aerodromes
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I think we are all getting a bit over-complicated here in terms of a take-off alternate and wind. As far as JAR go, the '1 Hour at s/e speed' is a NOMINAL figure for planning purposes only of no consequence to the actual time taken to fly to the alternate. (I'm sure we've had this discussion recently elsewhere on PPRune!). There is NO requirement to take wind into account. IIRC it is actually predicated as a still-air distance in the regs. That is not to say that if your chosen alternate was 1 hour (still air) away into the teeth of a 180kt hurricane it would not be prudent to consider that.
