Emergency Turn
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Emergency Turn
Can someone please tell me the definition of an emergency turn, my understanding of an emergency turn is that you can not accelerate until you have finished the turn, even if you are above your acceleration altitude? Many Captains I fly with say you can accelerate once you have climbed above the acceleration altitude, before the turn. Can someone tell me their interpretation of an emergency turn?
Many thanks
Many thanks
Gender Faculty Specialist
Our SOP is to accelerate at the acceleration altitude, usually 1000' aal, regardless. If it's during the turn, before the turn or after the turn it doesn't matter.
The emergency turn is designed to take you away from any high ground and keep you within a safe part of sky. Therefore, if you are visual or under radar control (vectors can be requested as long as you are above the minimum radar vectoring altitude) you may ignore the emergency turn.
The emergency turn is designed to take you away from any high ground and keep you within a safe part of sky. Therefore, if you are visual or under radar control (vectors can be requested as long as you are above the minimum radar vectoring altitude) you may ignore the emergency turn.
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It all depends on the turn, generally speaking we design Emergency turns for speeds between 130-190KIAS, the radius of the turn obviously increases with speed.
Lets take Hong Kong for an example, the emergency turn starts after a 7nm straight ahead portion,followed by a 60 degree turn to fly down a wide valley.
If you accelerate to 210 KIAS in the straight ahead portion after taking off with a 10 kt tailwind, are you guaranteed that the radius of the turn will remain within the valley? The acceleration altitude shown on the takeoff chart is based upon obstacles used in the takeoff calculation, it is therefore worthless if you increase the radius of the turn.
We generally publish a limiting speed on the Emergency Turn, where possible, this speed will reflect the capabilities of the scheduled aircraft for that airport.
Therefore, it is NOT wise to accelerate before completing the turn.
Mutt
Lets take Hong Kong for an example, the emergency turn starts after a 7nm straight ahead portion,followed by a 60 degree turn to fly down a wide valley.
If you accelerate to 210 KIAS in the straight ahead portion after taking off with a 10 kt tailwind, are you guaranteed that the radius of the turn will remain within the valley? The acceleration altitude shown on the takeoff chart is based upon obstacles used in the takeoff calculation, it is therefore worthless if you increase the radius of the turn.
We generally publish a limiting speed on the Emergency Turn, where possible, this speed will reflect the capabilities of the scheduled aircraft for that airport.
Therefore, it is NOT wise to accelerate before completing the turn.
Mutt
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supergimp,
You've addressed one of the major concerns that I encounter when developing Special Procedures for One Engine Inoperative operations.
Before proceeding any further, allow me to categorically state - "Do NOT accelerate the aircraft until the Emergency turn is complete!!!"
The turns specified in Special OEI runway procedures ensure your lateral separation from obstacles, the speeds flown ensure your vertical separation from obstacles, but VERY IMPORTANTLY also determine the turn radii used to calculate the outer and inner edges of the lateral obstacle clearance splay. Thus, if you commence acceleration from V2 to your Final Takeoff Clean speed, the turn radius may well take you right outside the splay, and in conflict with obstacles not considered for the takeoff.
The greatest danger is with light weight Takeoffs when an early turn is required. Unlike an aircraft at it's limiting weight, you may well reach the acceleration altitude before or during a designated turn. If this occurs, my recommendation is to MAINTAIN the second segment speed (usually V2 to V2+10/15) until the turn is complete, even if this means delaying the acceleration until a greater than minimum acceleration altitude is reached.
One of "my" problem runways is Hobart (Australia) Runway 30. It's tight for obstacles. A right turn is required at the runway end, through more than 180° to ensure safe lateral separation from VERY high obstacles on the outer part of the splay. If the aircraft goes off at MTOW, it will still be at V2 upon completion of the turn, but a light weight aircraft will reach the nominated Minimum Acceleration Altitude during the turn. If the outer turn radius is based upon V2+10, the heavy aircraft has no problem, it is at V2+10 or less and on minimum turn radius. If a lighter aircraft accelerated to clean speed during the turn, terrain impact is GUARANTEED.
My initial solution was to provide pilots with advice to delay acceleration until the turn was completed (as described above). Sounds simple enough, but then we had people who wanted to reduce thrust to maintain the speed, some who could not conceive of maintaining V2 to a higher than MAA until the turn was complete. My repetitive dream became one of being the star witness at a coroner's inquest.
The solution that I finally adopted was to assume, for the purposes of calculating the outer splay limits during the turn, that the aircraft was at clean speed all the way from screen height. It brought a whole new bunch of obstacles into play that weren't there before, with consequent performance and payload penalties due to the greater 2nd segment gradient required. The accountants groaned but I slept a whole lot better
So the bottom line is this, find out from your airline / Performance Engineering department / sub-contractor for performance analysis, just what speed and bank angle criteria do they employ for the calculation of outer and inner turn radii. (I include bank angle in this comment because some wanted to fly a 25° bank commanded by the Flight Director, and there goes the lateral protection for the inner part of the turn splay). If they use Final Takeoff speed for ALL outer turn radii, then go ahead, accelerate as soon as you reach acceleration altitude. If they do not, then I say again - "Do NOT accelerate the aircraft until the Emergency turn is complete!!!".
Fly safe, know how the performance information that you use was derived.
Regards,
Old Smokey
You've addressed one of the major concerns that I encounter when developing Special Procedures for One Engine Inoperative operations.
Before proceeding any further, allow me to categorically state - "Do NOT accelerate the aircraft until the Emergency turn is complete!!!"
The turns specified in Special OEI runway procedures ensure your lateral separation from obstacles, the speeds flown ensure your vertical separation from obstacles, but VERY IMPORTANTLY also determine the turn radii used to calculate the outer and inner edges of the lateral obstacle clearance splay. Thus, if you commence acceleration from V2 to your Final Takeoff Clean speed, the turn radius may well take you right outside the splay, and in conflict with obstacles not considered for the takeoff.
The greatest danger is with light weight Takeoffs when an early turn is required. Unlike an aircraft at it's limiting weight, you may well reach the acceleration altitude before or during a designated turn. If this occurs, my recommendation is to MAINTAIN the second segment speed (usually V2 to V2+10/15) until the turn is complete, even if this means delaying the acceleration until a greater than minimum acceleration altitude is reached.
One of "my" problem runways is Hobart (Australia) Runway 30. It's tight for obstacles. A right turn is required at the runway end, through more than 180° to ensure safe lateral separation from VERY high obstacles on the outer part of the splay. If the aircraft goes off at MTOW, it will still be at V2 upon completion of the turn, but a light weight aircraft will reach the nominated Minimum Acceleration Altitude during the turn. If the outer turn radius is based upon V2+10, the heavy aircraft has no problem, it is at V2+10 or less and on minimum turn radius. If a lighter aircraft accelerated to clean speed during the turn, terrain impact is GUARANTEED.
My initial solution was to provide pilots with advice to delay acceleration until the turn was completed (as described above). Sounds simple enough, but then we had people who wanted to reduce thrust to maintain the speed, some who could not conceive of maintaining V2 to a higher than MAA until the turn was complete. My repetitive dream became one of being the star witness at a coroner's inquest.
The solution that I finally adopted was to assume, for the purposes of calculating the outer splay limits during the turn, that the aircraft was at clean speed all the way from screen height. It brought a whole new bunch of obstacles into play that weren't there before, with consequent performance and payload penalties due to the greater 2nd segment gradient required. The accountants groaned but I slept a whole lot better
So the bottom line is this, find out from your airline / Performance Engineering department / sub-contractor for performance analysis, just what speed and bank angle criteria do they employ for the calculation of outer and inner turn radii. (I include bank angle in this comment because some wanted to fly a 25° bank commanded by the Flight Director, and there goes the lateral protection for the inner part of the turn splay). If they use Final Takeoff speed for ALL outer turn radii, then go ahead, accelerate as soon as you reach acceleration altitude. If they do not, then I say again - "Do NOT accelerate the aircraft until the Emergency turn is complete!!!".
Fly safe, know how the performance information that you use was derived.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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In my experience any ET procedure which is required to be speed limited is annotated as such (INN, SZG and CMF spring instanltly to mind), therefore I would assume that if no such limit applied I could accel to min clean at accel altitude (as specified) - it is, however, best to ask your performance ?department? to make sure they have it right!
EDIT following OS post: CMF R18 is one where you may well need to throttle back during the ET!
EDIT following OS post: CMF R18 is one where you may well need to throttle back during the ET!
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Mutt,
It seems that we were simultaneously posting. I hope that I didn't contradict you. I'm amazed that John_T didn't beat us to the draw, I think that he's suffering PDWS (Performance Discussion Withdrawal Syndrome)
(Have you seen the threads he's replying to lately?)
Regards,
Old Smokey
It seems that we were simultaneously posting. I hope that I didn't contradict you. I'm amazed that John_T didn't beat us to the draw, I think that he's suffering PDWS (Performance Discussion Withdrawal Syndrome)
(Have you seen the threads he's replying to lately?) Regards,
Old Smokey
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BOAC,
Don't throttle back during the ET, keep on climbing at V2! Enjoy the view of the obstacles from a higher elevation during the increased acceleration altitude!
Regards,
Old Smokey
Don't throttle back during the ET, keep on climbing at V2! Enjoy the view of the obstacles from a higher elevation during the increased acceleration altitude!
Regards,
Old Smokey
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Our ET procedures are generally designed so that you can accelerate at acceleration altitude. However if turn radius is of importance you are normally limited to take off configuration for the first turn. The procedure reads like "maintain V2 and TKOF flaps until established on..." in that case. That is the big exception though, only 2 or 3 procedures that i know of have that, most notable is NCE where it is really important. Unfortunately some procedures were designed rather stupid from our performance supplier, for example in STR they expected us to turn at 1500' AGL and then hold at he Outer Marker of the approach runway putting us right in the way of possible go arounds, only after heavy pilot complaints it got changed.
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Maximum Acc Altitude
Hello,
In Airbus MTOM performance charts, along with the minimum acceleration altitude there is a so called "Maximum Acceleration Altitude".
Can anybody explain how it is calculated and the practical use of it in the case of OEI procedures?
LNB
In Airbus MTOM performance charts, along with the minimum acceleration altitude there is a so called "Maximum Acceleration Altitude".
Can anybody explain how it is calculated and the practical use of it in the case of OEI procedures?
LNB
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Hi folks one of most studied subjects I suppose. Here some extraction from Ozzie's regulations regarding the emergency turn radius.
6.1 Turn Radius Splay
The lateral obstacle containment area or splay in a turn can be significantly effected by temperature. The turn radius is a function of true airspeed (plus wind), which varies with temperature at the same indicated airspeed.
Also, the engine-out indicated airspeed (V2 or V2 plus an increment) varies considerably with weight, and limit weight is strongly affected by temperature. The temperature effect on both the maximum and minimum
turn radii must be taken into account. For turn radius consideration the following guidance can be applied:
Inner radius: Minimum dispatch weight at the coldest planned departure. This will give the tightest turn radius.
Outer radius: Maximum dispatch weight at the hottest planned departure. This will provide the largest turn radius.
However, it is acceptable to do a turn analysis based on a single critical temperature if that temperature produces results which are conservative for all other temperatures. In a turn, the specified lateral containment half-widths (i.e., one-half of the lateral containment maximum
width) should be applied to the inside of the minimum turn radius and the outside of the maximum turn radius. An average turn radius may be used to calculate distances along track.
However there are some places I can think of and as mentioned here like SZG or INN where its absolutely crucial to maintain a prescribed speed in order to stay within the turn radius which causes a weight penalties.
Cheers.
6.1 Turn Radius Splay
The lateral obstacle containment area or splay in a turn can be significantly effected by temperature. The turn radius is a function of true airspeed (plus wind), which varies with temperature at the same indicated airspeed.
Also, the engine-out indicated airspeed (V2 or V2 plus an increment) varies considerably with weight, and limit weight is strongly affected by temperature. The temperature effect on both the maximum and minimum
turn radii must be taken into account. For turn radius consideration the following guidance can be applied:
Inner radius: Minimum dispatch weight at the coldest planned departure. This will give the tightest turn radius.
Outer radius: Maximum dispatch weight at the hottest planned departure. This will provide the largest turn radius.
However, it is acceptable to do a turn analysis based on a single critical temperature if that temperature produces results which are conservative for all other temperatures. In a turn, the specified lateral containment half-widths (i.e., one-half of the lateral containment maximum
width) should be applied to the inside of the minimum turn radius and the outside of the maximum turn radius. An average turn radius may be used to calculate distances along track.
However there are some places I can think of and as mentioned here like SZG or INN where its absolutely crucial to maintain a prescribed speed in order to stay within the turn radius which causes a weight penalties.
Cheers.
Gender Faculty Specialist
I don't want to contradict you lot. But I can't, off the top of my head, recall any ET procedures which don't allow us to accelerate at the stipulated altitude whether we've completed the turn or not.
The SOP states that at accel altitude, carry out a level acceleration through flap retraction to Single engine climb speed plus any icing increment (+20kts) continue climbing at that speed to the MSA or higher and follow the emergency turn. Q400.
Granted I haven't been to Sion, Chambery or Innsbruck in the Q400, that might happen this year. But I can recall from my 146 days, as BOAC and Denti stated, that there are limitations at these places, generally V2 or V2+10 with take off flap. These are always annotated on the plates and in the airfield brief. I've always assumed (the mother of all fcuk ups!) that unless a speed limit is stated I can accelerate normally and nobody has ever questioned that.
Interesting thread chaps. Smokey and Mutt I've taken onboard your points and will be having a quiet chat with my Fleet Manager soonest.
The SOP states that at accel altitude, carry out a level acceleration through flap retraction to Single engine climb speed plus any icing increment (+20kts) continue climbing at that speed to the MSA or higher and follow the emergency turn. Q400.
Granted I haven't been to Sion, Chambery or Innsbruck in the Q400, that might happen this year. But I can recall from my 146 days, as BOAC and Denti stated, that there are limitations at these places, generally V2 or V2+10 with take off flap. These are always annotated on the plates and in the airfield brief. I've always assumed (the mother of all fcuk ups!) that unless a speed limit is stated I can accelerate normally and nobody has ever questioned that.
Interesting thread chaps. Smokey and Mutt I've taken onboard your points and will be having a quiet chat with my Fleet Manager soonest.
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Old S - it is a bit of a thread diversion (CMF) - although the brief does specify 'no acceleration until...', but you may wish to have a look at it regarding reducing power in the procedure, 'cos you may have to - to maintain 'surface contact'.
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Originally Posted by LDG NO BLUE
Hello,
In Airbus MTOM performance charts, along with the minimum acceleration altitude there is a so called "Maximum Acceleration Altitude".
Can anybody explain how it is calculated and the practical use of it in the case of OEI procedures?
LNB
In Airbus MTOM performance charts, along with the minimum acceleration altitude there is a so called "Maximum Acceleration Altitude".
Can anybody explain how it is calculated and the practical use of it in the case of OEI procedures?
LNB
BOAC, sorry, I missed your point for those circumstances where visual contact during the acceleration is necessary. Mine was a purely IMC situation, maintain V2 (plus permitted additives) at Takeoff thrust, until the turning manoeuvre/s are completed.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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Chesty,
Its worth remembering that Emergency Turns are used to avoid terrain/obstacles, the acceleration altitude is only based upon the obstacles in the new takeoff splay. If you accelerate arbiturally, therefore increasing the radius of the turn, it’s quite conceivable that the initially limiting obstacle will be in your flight path, your acceleration altitude therefore offers ZERO protection!
Hong Kong becomes our latest destination starting tomorrow, for the emergency turn we discussed the procedure with airlines based there, flew the profile in the FFS of the 2 aircraft types operating there. Sent observers on the flightdeck to see the airport, sent engineers to visit the airport, obtained topographical data and discussed the subject with the local authorities. Basically, a lot of effort went into designing the most appropriate procedure for our aircraft. Is this the sort of service that you are getting from your emergency turn designer?
Old_smokey.... It appears that since the question forum moved down the page, the level of questions in here have become less technical
Mutt
Its worth remembering that Emergency Turns are used to avoid terrain/obstacles, the acceleration altitude is only based upon the obstacles in the new takeoff splay. If you accelerate arbiturally, therefore increasing the radius of the turn, it’s quite conceivable that the initially limiting obstacle will be in your flight path, your acceleration altitude therefore offers ZERO protection!
Hong Kong becomes our latest destination starting tomorrow, for the emergency turn we discussed the procedure with airlines based there, flew the profile in the FFS of the 2 aircraft types operating there. Sent observers on the flightdeck to see the airport, sent engineers to visit the airport, obtained topographical data and discussed the subject with the local authorities. Basically, a lot of effort went into designing the most appropriate procedure for our aircraft. Is this the sort of service that you are getting from your emergency turn designer?
Old_smokey.... It appears that since the question forum moved down the page, the level of questions in here have become less technical
Mutt
Gender Faculty Specialist
Originally Posted by mutt
Is this the sort of service that you are getting from your emergency turn designer?
I understand what you're saying. I've had a look through our stuff and there isn't a single one which stipulates accelerating after the ET. Kind of worrying after this discussion. I'll be having a word with the Boss just to make sure there haven't been any glaring omissions!
Cheers
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Mutt hi there,
its also worth to mention that the emergency turn was initially designed to be commenced during the second segment as to avoid close in obstacles. The distanced one can be avoided by an early commence of turn during acceleration and clean up.
6.0 Turn Analysis
In many cases a turn will eliminate the need to consider limiting obstacles, increasing maximum takeoff weight (increasing payload and/or range). However, a turn may introduce new obstacles in the flight path
and may limit V2 to maintain a turn radius. EOSIDs usually involve a turn during the second segment takeoff climb phase. Sometimes the turn may be
continued into the third segment. A note of caution should be made when considering turns in the third segment. Third segment distance will be extended due to the reduction of the acceleration capability (gradient capability) of the aircraft from the gradient loss in the turn. This may need to be compensated with a weight reduction or by an equivalent alternative means as the regulatory gradient capability must be restored.
Turns in the third segment can be penalizing for obstacle clearance and should only be used for clearance turns to avoid obstacles rather than flying over obstacles.
If it becomes necessary to execute more than one turn like in HKG I can imagine we will have to implement GNSS EOSID to be flown.
Cheers.
its also worth to mention that the emergency turn was initially designed to be commenced during the second segment as to avoid close in obstacles. The distanced one can be avoided by an early commence of turn during acceleration and clean up.
6.0 Turn Analysis
In many cases a turn will eliminate the need to consider limiting obstacles, increasing maximum takeoff weight (increasing payload and/or range). However, a turn may introduce new obstacles in the flight path
and may limit V2 to maintain a turn radius. EOSIDs usually involve a turn during the second segment takeoff climb phase. Sometimes the turn may be
continued into the third segment. A note of caution should be made when considering turns in the third segment. Third segment distance will be extended due to the reduction of the acceleration capability (gradient capability) of the aircraft from the gradient loss in the turn. This may need to be compensated with a weight reduction or by an equivalent alternative means as the regulatory gradient capability must be restored.
Turns in the third segment can be penalizing for obstacle clearance and should only be used for clearance turns to avoid obstacles rather than flying over obstacles.
If it becomes necessary to execute more than one turn like in HKG I can imagine we will have to implement GNSS EOSID to be flown.
Cheers.
Moderator
If I may echo OS and Mutt .. thoughts which I suggest should be paramount ..
(a) do you have ALL the details which went into the ops engineering assessment of a particular escape procedure ? Generally, NO .. in which case you ad lib at your peril .. unless you propose to redo the entire calculation set.
(b) the critical obstacle(s) which predicate the turn can be anywhere in the procedure .. please don't presume that they are second segment .. they may well be fourth segment.
(c) OEI ... NEVER pull the power back (other than to avoid exceeding engine limits) .. at commercial weights you don't have much thrust to spare anyway .. and you want to reduce it ? (The only caveat is that some jurisdictions - eg Australia - permit a quasi visual escape for smaller aircraft so there may be a restriction to maintain visual contact but this would have a consideration for subsequent terrain and climb problems. For larger aircraft, which are done for the solid IMC case, there may be a minimum cloud base to permit visual confirmation of a turn key .. and Hobart is a good example where this can be appropriate.
(d) speed (and bank - 15 deg unless otherwise noted) determine turn radius and turn radius determines if the bumpy bit is left, right ... or dead ahead (pun intended).
(e) any decently organised flight standards department WILL REQUIRE the ops eng folk to specify a set of general rules to underpin the specific escape procedures and the pilot should be able to presume that the system captures the published requirements in the way it does business ... occasional screw-ups notwithstanding ...
(f) generally we avoid scheduling third segment turns as the dynamics are just too variable and, to capture the reasonable extremes of the potential splay, the penalties usually are too great.
(g) main point is that you, as pilot, vary the calculated procedure at your potentially DIRE peril.
(a) do you have ALL the details which went into the ops engineering assessment of a particular escape procedure ? Generally, NO .. in which case you ad lib at your peril .. unless you propose to redo the entire calculation set.
(b) the critical obstacle(s) which predicate the turn can be anywhere in the procedure .. please don't presume that they are second segment .. they may well be fourth segment.
(c) OEI ... NEVER pull the power back (other than to avoid exceeding engine limits) .. at commercial weights you don't have much thrust to spare anyway .. and you want to reduce it ? (The only caveat is that some jurisdictions - eg Australia - permit a quasi visual escape for smaller aircraft so there may be a restriction to maintain visual contact but this would have a consideration for subsequent terrain and climb problems. For larger aircraft, which are done for the solid IMC case, there may be a minimum cloud base to permit visual confirmation of a turn key .. and Hobart is a good example where this can be appropriate.
(d) speed (and bank - 15 deg unless otherwise noted) determine turn radius and turn radius determines if the bumpy bit is left, right ... or dead ahead (pun intended).
(e) any decently organised flight standards department WILL REQUIRE the ops eng folk to specify a set of general rules to underpin the specific escape procedures and the pilot should be able to presume that the system captures the published requirements in the way it does business ... occasional screw-ups notwithstanding ...
(f) generally we avoid scheduling third segment turns as the dynamics are just too variable and, to capture the reasonable extremes of the potential splay, the penalties usually are too great.
(g) main point is that you, as pilot, vary the calculated procedure at your potentially DIRE peril.
Chesty,
I suspect that we fly for the same company, if you search through the performance charts you will find examples which quote (as Denti states) "Maintain V2 TKOF flaps during first turn" - the example I have in front of me is runway 33 at PGF. In the main, however, it is safe to clean up and accelerate as normal in the Q400 because on one engine you will be climbing at a speed well below 190 kts anyway so there is no problem with turn radius. You will also find that if you do go to Sion/Innsbruck/Chambrey etc your simulator training for the airfield will cover any differences, as is done at the moment for Berne.
Remember that emergency turns are type specific so it is difficult to generalise - those saying to maintain V2 etc are as correct for their aircraft types (heavier/faster) as we are - your SOPs are correct.
I suspect that we fly for the same company, if you search through the performance charts you will find examples which quote (as Denti states) "Maintain V2 TKOF flaps during first turn" - the example I have in front of me is runway 33 at PGF. In the main, however, it is safe to clean up and accelerate as normal in the Q400 because on one engine you will be climbing at a speed well below 190 kts anyway so there is no problem with turn radius. You will also find that if you do go to Sion/Innsbruck/Chambrey etc your simulator training for the airfield will cover any differences, as is done at the moment for Berne.
Remember that emergency turns are type specific so it is difficult to generalise - those saying to maintain V2 etc are as correct for their aircraft types (heavier/faster) as we are - your SOPs are correct.
