Logbook matter
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Logbook matter
Hi all. I have logged 1100 hours of ATR copilot in my JAR approved Jeppesen logbook but have only just noticed that I could log the legs I fly as P1 U/S with the captain signing the entry. It says so in the notes at the beginning of the logbook. Is that necessary for captain promotion when the time comes? I would be disapointed because I must have been PF on 2/3 of the flying I have done up to now and I have logged it all as copilot. I am only interested in how it is done in europe with JAR approved operators, thank you for any insight.
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with my operator, we need to pass a captaincy skill test (together with OPC or LPC) in order to start logging PIC(US) hours.
And after that, indeed we may log the hours when we are PF, to reach the 250 PIC (maximum)
You should first ask your operator if there is a program approved by the CAA to do so.
And after that, indeed we may log the hours when we are PF, to reach the 250 PIC (maximum)
You should first ask your operator if there is a program approved by the CAA to do so.
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Our lot doesn't have any restrictions as in the above post within our Ops Manual, most P2's log as you suggest.
Do check your ops manual just in case there is a clause like fbozh suggests.
Do check your ops manual just in case there is a clause like fbozh suggests.
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DO NOT DO THIS
Although some people on these forums will tell you that you actually should write your PF hours as P1 U/S when flying with a Trainer, this is absolutely not accepted anywhere outside the UK.
I have frequently told people here that P1 U/S should only be used when undergoing Command training, and never otherwise.
You will see strange looks on any EU carriers recruiter when she/he examines your logbook as FO and sees hours logged as Captain of the aircraft, which is the defenition of P1.
By the way, Ii is not recommended to have your logbook with you on the flightdeck.
BRGDS,
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Although some people on these forums will tell you that you actually should write your PF hours as P1 U/S when flying with a Trainer, this is absolutely not accepted anywhere outside the UK.
I have frequently told people here that P1 U/S should only be used when undergoing Command training, and never otherwise.
You will see strange looks on any EU carriers recruiter when she/he examines your logbook as FO and sees hours logged as Captain of the aircraft, which is the defenition of P1.
By the way, Ii is not recommended to have your logbook with you on the flightdeck.
BRGDS,
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2/3 as PF - you sector hog!
No, I dont think the amount of PF you have done would be a factor at all when you're considered for command.
Well, you are in the UK, and in the UK, it is standard practice to log all PF sectors as P1u/s. It is common on application forms to have to split your f/o time into PF and PNF, and particularly with a PC logbook it is far easier to do if they are in different columns. I have submitted my logbook to two European countries for validations, and not had any problems, and have not heard of any problems from others outside Europe, (I know that Cathay for example have no issues with f/os logging P1u/s). Some continental EU countries, particularly Germany, can be sticklers though. A footnote is helpful to explain what your P1u/s actually is, if there is any doubt. If the P1u/s column were only to be used for command training, then it would be obsolete as no-one would ever have more than a handful of hours in it - Use it for what it is clearly intended! I dont know of anyone who gets a P1u/s counter-signature for every sector; A final signature from the chief pilot generally suffices when you change companies.
Although it is a legal requirement, a logbook is essentially your personal document. If someone asks you how much such and such time you have, then you are legally obliged to give the correct answer; However, it is not their place to say "your log book is not compliant"; If it is compliant with the UK rules to keep a record of your flights, (the rules being pretty minimal), then it is fine. I know a couple of guys who just have a pile of ACARS print outs, and I cant see any reason why this shouldn't be OK - It's not a book, but a bit of gaffer tape and string would solve that.
However, do not represent P1u/s time as P1 time. If the choice is between P1 and P2 on an application form for example, it is P2 time.
As an aside, I was told I could log my time as nominated relief in command as straight P1; I never have though, and put in down as P2 (relief).
No, I dont think the amount of PF you have done would be a factor at all when you're considered for command.
Well, you are in the UK, and in the UK, it is standard practice to log all PF sectors as P1u/s. It is common on application forms to have to split your f/o time into PF and PNF, and particularly with a PC logbook it is far easier to do if they are in different columns. I have submitted my logbook to two European countries for validations, and not had any problems, and have not heard of any problems from others outside Europe, (I know that Cathay for example have no issues with f/os logging P1u/s). Some continental EU countries, particularly Germany, can be sticklers though. A footnote is helpful to explain what your P1u/s actually is, if there is any doubt. If the P1u/s column were only to be used for command training, then it would be obsolete as no-one would ever have more than a handful of hours in it - Use it for what it is clearly intended! I dont know of anyone who gets a P1u/s counter-signature for every sector; A final signature from the chief pilot generally suffices when you change companies.
Although it is a legal requirement, a logbook is essentially your personal document. If someone asks you how much such and such time you have, then you are legally obliged to give the correct answer; However, it is not their place to say "your log book is not compliant"; If it is compliant with the UK rules to keep a record of your flights, (the rules being pretty minimal), then it is fine. I know a couple of guys who just have a pile of ACARS print outs, and I cant see any reason why this shouldn't be OK - It's not a book, but a bit of gaffer tape and string would solve that.
However, do not represent P1u/s time as P1 time. If the choice is between P1 and P2 on an application form for example, it is P2 time.
As an aside, I was told I could log my time as nominated relief in command as straight P1; I never have though, and put in down as P2 (relief).
Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 7th Jul 2006 at 10:56.
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logbook
Thanks for the replies. And what if I have flown 1200 hours multi crew and I have looged it all under copilot. Should I go back and amend my logbook(although I think erasers are not allowed) or can I just leave it as it is now. Will I be worse off for command promotion when it comes or will all concerned recognise and understand that half of that time is actually P1 U/S? Thanks
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If you hold a UK licence (or will be applying for your JAA ATPL through the UK) then you MUST log your sectors as P1u/s.
WHY?.....
When it comes time to upgrading you frozen ATPL, amongst other things, you must show (do not quote me on the exact hour requirements) 250hrs P1. If you have come from Oxford etc you will have around 100 hrs P1; made up by 50Hrs solo and 50 P1u/s or SPIC. (if you hold a CPL you have already met this requirement)
The rest comes from your airline job. These first 250hrs must be counter signed by the Captain, although the CAA will accept a letter from the company.
Once you have the required 1500hrs, including the night, multi-pilot, etc you can then and only then (+1500hrs) take a skills test. This form can be downloaded from the CAA, or may even be part of the OPC/LPC forms (not sure now as I was with an Irish company) Present it at the briefing during your next company sim check and ask the examiner to sign it, if he feels able! It’s nothing more than the usual OPC/LPC.
NB. if you have 1400hrs and are approaching your sim check you can include 100hrs sim time to get up to the 1500hrs; this way you don’t have to wait another six months for your new green licence, and possible pay rise.
Take 5mins each day and rewrite your log book. I did. I think that a scruffy, crossed out log book says a lot when attending a job interview. Of course now I just file my coffee stained, scrappy ACARS print outs…….now where did I put that gaffer tape and string!!!!!!
Hope this helps
WHY?.....
When it comes time to upgrading you frozen ATPL, amongst other things, you must show (do not quote me on the exact hour requirements) 250hrs P1. If you have come from Oxford etc you will have around 100 hrs P1; made up by 50Hrs solo and 50 P1u/s or SPIC. (if you hold a CPL you have already met this requirement)
The rest comes from your airline job. These first 250hrs must be counter signed by the Captain, although the CAA will accept a letter from the company.
Once you have the required 1500hrs, including the night, multi-pilot, etc you can then and only then (+1500hrs) take a skills test. This form can be downloaded from the CAA, or may even be part of the OPC/LPC forms (not sure now as I was with an Irish company) Present it at the briefing during your next company sim check and ask the examiner to sign it, if he feels able! It’s nothing more than the usual OPC/LPC.
NB. if you have 1400hrs and are approaching your sim check you can include 100hrs sim time to get up to the 1500hrs; this way you don’t have to wait another six months for your new green licence, and possible pay rise.
Take 5mins each day and rewrite your log book. I did. I think that a scruffy, crossed out log book says a lot when attending a job interview. Of course now I just file my coffee stained, scrappy ACARS print outs…….now where did I put that gaffer tape and string!!!!!!
Hope this helps
