NEMP protection - ACJ and BBJ Considerations
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.. I knew I should have kept a closer eye on this.
(a) I will now go through from the start and cull the nonsense
(b) the original question is valid.
(c) we really don't want to descend to trading insults in this forum, please ..
(a) I will now go through from the start and cull the nonsense
(b) the original question is valid.
(c) we really don't want to descend to trading insults in this forum, please ..
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Plastic Bug
Thanks for yor post - though I am not sure about your statement - please feel free to illustrate where in the forum rules you are not allowed to ask questions if you don't know an answer, you could help me there. I think john_tullamarine's answer does not agree there.
Final 3 - thanks for you exmaples of hypothetical learning - I quite agree that there does not have to be a concrete conclusion (but also, I hope you will agree, there sometimes is a conclusion).
Even though we know that there is no empirical data avilable to answer the question to a high degree of confidence, Mach 4.0 was asking for help to
1. Find some of that data (obviously not empirical, but from public domain reserach).
2. Get guidance on the process of investigating the question using the data.
Thanks.
You have no business asking.
Final 3 - thanks for you exmaples of hypothetical learning - I quite agree that there does not have to be a concrete conclusion (but also, I hope you will agree, there sometimes is a conclusion).
Even though we know that there is no empirical data avilable to answer the question to a high degree of confidence, Mach 4.0 was asking for help to
1. Find some of that data (obviously not empirical, but from public domain reserach).
2. Get guidance on the process of investigating the question using the data.
Thanks.
Does anyone know if the Airbus proposed A330 tanker for the USAF, has a additional hardened NEMP requirement, or is it come as is?
May answer the question. USAF nuclear war planning with B2's hunting mobile ballisic missiles, would suggest their tankers operating close enough to where the mushroom clouds billowing. If If USAF KC330's could be disabled by EMP, a hell of a flaw in their preparation.
May answer the question. USAF nuclear war planning with B2's hunting mobile ballisic missiles, would suggest their tankers operating close enough to where the mushroom clouds billowing. If If USAF KC330's could be disabled by EMP, a hell of a flaw in their preparation.
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Tallsandwich
I agree that there can be a concrete conclusion; usually, you need clear and agreed variables to achieve this.
Sometimes, it is not necessary to reach a concrete conclusion - just being aware of the potential scenarios and options is a valuable enough outcome.
Now, let's move on to discussing those meteorite and earthquake protection systems
I agree that there can be a concrete conclusion; usually, you need clear and agreed variables to achieve this.
Sometimes, it is not necessary to reach a concrete conclusion - just being aware of the potential scenarios and options is a valuable enough outcome.
Now, let's move on to discussing those meteorite and earthquake protection systems
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Final 3 - you do crack me up, Sir.
But you forgot to add Martien Ray Gun protection - I think that was also suggested 3 pages back somewhere in the mockery; now that we have approval to ask hypothetical questions, it will be open season. However for the sake of everyone who by now are pulling their hair out, let's save that topic for another time when "things are quiet".
But you forgot to add Martien Ray Gun protection - I think that was also suggested 3 pages back somewhere in the mockery; now that we have approval to ask hypothetical questions, it will be open season. However for the sake of everyone who by now are pulling their hair out, let's save that topic for another time when "things are quiet".
Moderator
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Please, can we keep the discussion on a friendly and sporting level.
Restating the basics ..
(a) if it is (even tenuously) related to professional flying and relevant to technical matters .. it's a goer. While I have no problem with some thread wander and creep .. we need to keep some sort of focus on the original thread topic lest the whole thing degenerate into utter anarchy ..
(b) does it need to have a definitive answer ... of course not
(c) will we permit ignorant and boorish behaviour .. absolutely not
My apologies to
(a) those who have approached the topic seriously .. I should have stepped in much earlier
(b) to those whose posts were intended as light humour .. I may have been a bit heavy handed as I waded through just now
Please, can we keep the discussion on a friendly and sporting level.
Restating the basics ..
(a) if it is (even tenuously) related to professional flying and relevant to technical matters .. it's a goer. While I have no problem with some thread wander and creep .. we need to keep some sort of focus on the original thread topic lest the whole thing degenerate into utter anarchy ..
(b) does it need to have a definitive answer ... of course not
(c) will we permit ignorant and boorish behaviour .. absolutely not
My apologies to
(a) those who have approached the topic seriously .. I should have stepped in much earlier
(b) to those whose posts were intended as light humour .. I may have been a bit heavy handed as I waded through just now
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and now something which may change this discussion a bit.
Is anyone able to calculate the induced electric pulse lets say into the 1 km cable of the avionics bus assuming:
a) a given nuclear explosion say xxx kilotons (or choose megatons)
b) derive the radius within anything will be destroyed anyways and rule that out as it would not help the discussion
c) at that boundary come up with an induced (probable, possible, maybe so high) voltage according to the scenario given above
d) correcting this value for the shielding which every single electric and electronic part in an aircraft has
e) derive a peak voltage induced may found in the bus
Then we're talking sense. I'm not too got at maths so i cannot do it myself.
So - the invitation is posted - start heating up your brain cells before you answer.
And in the end we may find out that the shielding provided against other EMP mishaps like LEMP - and for those who don't know that term LEMP=lightning emmited magnetic pulse may be fair enough to protect our work gear as soon as we are far enough away not to get melted or to glow in the dark or ripped to pieces from a blast.
To the question if it is a design flaw. I don't think so. And to extend the discussion - if I properly remember a 777 is also a FBW plane? So both manufacturers thought of this as not being a real problem. Maybe they even thought about that and already came up with a solution to my little brain puzzle.
Have a nice and "hard thinking" time
E401
P.S. "Final 3 Greens" I agree about setting up scenarios for learning techniques. Great tool and sometimes fun and motivation.
Is anyone able to calculate the induced electric pulse lets say into the 1 km cable of the avionics bus assuming:
a) a given nuclear explosion say xxx kilotons (or choose megatons)
b) derive the radius within anything will be destroyed anyways and rule that out as it would not help the discussion
c) at that boundary come up with an induced (probable, possible, maybe so high) voltage according to the scenario given above
d) correcting this value for the shielding which every single electric and electronic part in an aircraft has
e) derive a peak voltage induced may found in the bus
Then we're talking sense. I'm not too got at maths so i cannot do it myself.
So - the invitation is posted - start heating up your brain cells before you answer.
And in the end we may find out that the shielding provided against other EMP mishaps like LEMP - and for those who don't know that term LEMP=lightning emmited magnetic pulse may be fair enough to protect our work gear as soon as we are far enough away not to get melted or to glow in the dark or ripped to pieces from a blast.
To the question if it is a design flaw. I don't think so. And to extend the discussion - if I properly remember a 777 is also a FBW plane? So both manufacturers thought of this as not being a real problem. Maybe they even thought about that and already came up with a solution to my little brain puzzle.
Have a nice and "hard thinking" time
E401
P.S. "Final 3 Greens" I agree about setting up scenarios for learning techniques. Great tool and sometimes fun and motivation.
Warning Toxic!
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I don't think you are going to get many solutions to this one somehow! I think I shall go sit in the sun with a nice cold beer instead.
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Self Loading
I bet Easyjet are sorry they chose them Airbuss now
Not as much as Ryanair, whose planes don't have window blinds - aka atomic flash filters.
(For those of limited humour or working in the Ryanair legal department, let me say that this is a joke and no disrespect aimed at the airline.)
I bet Easyjet are sorry they chose them Airbuss now
Not as much as Ryanair, whose planes don't have window blinds - aka atomic flash filters.
(For those of limited humour or working in the Ryanair legal department, let me say that this is a joke and no disrespect aimed at the airline.)
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that's why i'm bad at the math.
too much sitting in the sun and having a beer
by the way - it looks as if my post has cooled down the discussion a bit. exactly like a cold beer.
cheers
P.S. If you fry all electrics the cooling won't work either - so, once on the ground the beer might not be cold anymore.
Will meet a friend Friday - Capt. and instructor on the A320 - Will ask about manual reversion.
too much sitting in the sun and having a beer
by the way - it looks as if my post has cooled down the discussion a bit. exactly like a cold beer.
cheers
P.S. If you fry all electrics the cooling won't work either - so, once on the ground the beer might not be cold anymore.
Will meet a friend Friday - Capt. and instructor on the A320 - Will ask about manual reversion.
Last edited by error_401; 1st Jun 2006 at 08:02.
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my brother is finally back in college so i can post...because he gets b***chy
it is his computer...but i've missed alot
back on topic this is a question that i myself have thought about but never had the presence of mind to bring up...I have a volume in How Stuff Works, in which there under the topic of "Jamming devices" there is a photo of a B-52 sitting upon a huge platform undergoing EMP testing and this photo must be al least 20 years old as most of the illustrations are so it seem to have been or be a military issue for a while.
I do feel that conventional weaponry AT THE VERY PRESENT is the greater risk...only because i can't imagine a terrorist building one of such high wattage now...as far as Technically advanced sovereign govts well it seem like they'd only hurt themselves as they are the ones who NEED the juice...
interesting topic but i not sure there's an anwser, but i think it is, or at least will be an issue for the near future the world is full of madness
ps i never PPRuNE at work because they already think i'm crazy
it is his computer...but i've missed alot
back on topic this is a question that i myself have thought about but never had the presence of mind to bring up...I have a volume in How Stuff Works, in which there under the topic of "Jamming devices" there is a photo of a B-52 sitting upon a huge platform undergoing EMP testing and this photo must be al least 20 years old as most of the illustrations are so it seem to have been or be a military issue for a while.
I do feel that conventional weaponry AT THE VERY PRESENT is the greater risk...only because i can't imagine a terrorist building one of such high wattage now...as far as Technically advanced sovereign govts well it seem like they'd only hurt themselves as they are the ones who NEED the juice...
interesting topic but i not sure there's an anwser, but i think it is, or at least will be an issue for the near future the world is full of madness
ps i never PPRuNE at work because they already think i'm crazy
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Thank you everyone!
To clarify further;
My understanding is the question relates to the worst case scenario as far as NEMP/DEW damage is concerned.
Ignoring all other scenarios about whether it is likely, whether everyone on board gets fried, what would happen on the ground, whether its a totally stupid question, etc, etc.
Just what is the worst case scenario of the NEMP/DEW damage? So although deep technical analysis of the strength of the NEMP/DEW required to cause problems is great supporting information. The answer that is really being sought is what is the likely worst case scenario as far as flight controils are concerned?
Therefore I see the answer revolves around, what would the worst NEMP/DEW damage do to the systems which
a) deploys RAT.
Airbus head of A320 team told me personally "by definition the battery bus is always operational, so RAT would deploy. But then went on to say one could have the option of manually deployiong via cable from flight deck.
b) once RAT is deployed, bearing in mind worst NEMP/DEW damage, would the stab/ rudder be available?
Even if this is a totally dumb question, I am intrigued!
My view, is that BBJ, being capable of complete manual reversion, still has a chance of being controllable, perhaps vmc only. It is quite right all flight instruments may be inop, and you are still in deep s*it. However it does seem that the aircraft has a chance of being controllable..if only by seat of the pants, and if a/c remains vmc.
So I believe, the answer this principal is intereted in is. In worst case scenario, is their a possability of the a/c being controllable, is survivability a possability, or will aircraft certainly have no flight controls.
Is this clear? to reiterate, in worst case scenario of NEMP/DEW damage are both aircraft potentially controllable and thus do both have a possability of survival.
(with hindsight the threat title is too controversial! I just wanted to stimulate debate.)
To clarify further;
My understanding is the question relates to the worst case scenario as far as NEMP/DEW damage is concerned.
Ignoring all other scenarios about whether it is likely, whether everyone on board gets fried, what would happen on the ground, whether its a totally stupid question, etc, etc.
Just what is the worst case scenario of the NEMP/DEW damage? So although deep technical analysis of the strength of the NEMP/DEW required to cause problems is great supporting information. The answer that is really being sought is what is the likely worst case scenario as far as flight controils are concerned?
Therefore I see the answer revolves around, what would the worst NEMP/DEW damage do to the systems which
a) deploys RAT.
Airbus head of A320 team told me personally "by definition the battery bus is always operational, so RAT would deploy. But then went on to say one could have the option of manually deployiong via cable from flight deck.
b) once RAT is deployed, bearing in mind worst NEMP/DEW damage, would the stab/ rudder be available?
Even if this is a totally dumb question, I am intrigued!
My view, is that BBJ, being capable of complete manual reversion, still has a chance of being controllable, perhaps vmc only. It is quite right all flight instruments may be inop, and you are still in deep s*it. However it does seem that the aircraft has a chance of being controllable..if only by seat of the pants, and if a/c remains vmc.
So I believe, the answer this principal is intereted in is. In worst case scenario, is their a possability of the a/c being controllable, is survivability a possability, or will aircraft certainly have no flight controls.
Is this clear? to reiterate, in worst case scenario of NEMP/DEW damage are both aircraft potentially controllable and thus do both have a possability of survival.
(with hindsight the threat title is too controversial! I just wanted to stimulate debate.)
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My view, is that BBJ, being capable of complete manual reversion, still has a chance of being controllable, perhaps vmc only.
Have you considered the physiological effects of a nuclear detonation - i.e. the flight crew may well be blind?
Surely that's your worst case scenario?
Have you considered the physiological effects of a nuclear detonation - i.e. the flight crew may well be blind?
Surely that's your worst case scenario?
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mach 4.0
again - there might not be a worst case. The worst case might be that you loose one generator and a couple buses and avionics like after a direct hit by lightning.
Only getting some hard figures would clarify a bit because (see my previous post) an aircraft is NOT UNPROTECTED ! ! ! Or we would fall out of the sky or loose everything every time we get hit by lightning.
So your worst case might be the scenarios we train for with partial or total com losses - loss of some ADC, EFIS, steering computers.
Will a RAT deploy - chances are YES. Would eventually your APU start? Maybe.
To get your worst case scenario we need to know what a pulse of given strenght would cause. So start up your computers and calculate it. Or ask somebody who knows - but they may not tell you - or they will have to shoot you once told.
E401
again - there might not be a worst case. The worst case might be that you loose one generator and a couple buses and avionics like after a direct hit by lightning.
Only getting some hard figures would clarify a bit because (see my previous post) an aircraft is NOT UNPROTECTED ! ! ! Or we would fall out of the sky or loose everything every time we get hit by lightning.
So your worst case might be the scenarios we train for with partial or total com losses - loss of some ADC, EFIS, steering computers.
Will a RAT deploy - chances are YES. Would eventually your APU start? Maybe.
To get your worst case scenario we need to know what a pulse of given strenght would cause. So start up your computers and calculate it. Or ask somebody who knows - but they may not tell you - or they will have to shoot you once told.
E401
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
This should give you the figures you need. Wikipedia - EMP
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Final 3 greens
Thank you but to re clarify, the question relates solely to the controllability of the aircraft, i.e. will rudder and stab work? There are many, many considerations. Agreed.
Error 404
I do not believe any calculations need to be made as we are looking at worst case scenario. Therefore for example, will NEMP/DEW affect battery? I believe not.
Your comment chances are RAT will deploy is just an opinion without any supporting reasoning/information. What would be helpful is a reason why the chances are the RAT will deploy.
Therefore I believe the individual components of the RAT deploy system need to be looked at. For example;
Battery not sure/ unaffected by NEMP/DEW
deploy switch not sure
wire to solenoid ditto
solenoid not sure
spring in solenoid unaffected possibly
etc, etc
Of course, i dont have a clue about the RAT system, this is just an example. And if I had done an airbus course, I doubt very much if course would discuss effect on NEMP/DEW on RAT system.
Once again, I am only trying to discover the effect on the flight controls, and the answer needs to be supported by some sort of reasoning. not just an opinion.
Thank you.
Thank you but to re clarify, the question relates solely to the controllability of the aircraft, i.e. will rudder and stab work? There are many, many considerations. Agreed.
Error 404
I do not believe any calculations need to be made as we are looking at worst case scenario. Therefore for example, will NEMP/DEW affect battery? I believe not.
Your comment chances are RAT will deploy is just an opinion without any supporting reasoning/information. What would be helpful is a reason why the chances are the RAT will deploy.
Therefore I believe the individual components of the RAT deploy system need to be looked at. For example;
Battery not sure/ unaffected by NEMP/DEW
deploy switch not sure
wire to solenoid ditto
solenoid not sure
spring in solenoid unaffected possibly
etc, etc
Of course, i dont have a clue about the RAT system, this is just an example. And if I had done an airbus course, I doubt very much if course would discuss effect on NEMP/DEW on RAT system.
Once again, I am only trying to discover the effect on the flight controls, and the answer needs to be supported by some sort of reasoning. not just an opinion.
Thank you.
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Thank you but to re clarify, the question relates solely to the controllability of the aircraft, i.e. will rudder and stab work?
Fair enough, I was scoping the physical capability of the crew into the controllability aspects of the aircraft, but now understand where you are coming from.
As I don't have the tech background to comment on what you need, I'll duck out.
Fair enough, I was scoping the physical capability of the crew into the controllability aspects of the aircraft, but now understand where you are coming from.
As I don't have the tech background to comment on what you need, I'll duck out.
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Mach 4.0, I might be a bit late to answer, but you could have avoided much turmoil if you had asked more neutral, i.e. FBW instead of A320. We all know that A320 isn't the only FBW model nowadays and your questions sounds like another French-bashing. An A320 will have the same problem like a Boeing 777 or 787 or an Embraer 170 or Saab 2000 or any other FBW aircraft.
Ask the right question - and you will get the right answer!
Happy continuation of the discussion (I agree that all modern airliners will fall from the sky in case of a nuclear holocaust).
Dani
Ask the right question - and you will get the right answer!
Happy continuation of the discussion (I agree that all modern airliners will fall from the sky in case of a nuclear holocaust).
Dani