Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)
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The mil introduced a 'Practice Emergency Training Frequency' (PETF) to reduce the loading on UHF 243.0. The main reasons were to prevent Pilots 'tuning out' from 243, but also to ensure the 243.0 frequency was available for a genuine emergency when it was really required.
Frequencies are scarce in the UK, but if D+D training is considered to hold such a high Flight Safety benefit then a VHF one could and should be made available. Both the reasons that caused the Mil to create a PETF are equally valid for 121.5
Frequencies are scarce in the UK, but if D+D training is considered to hold such a high Flight Safety benefit then a VHF one could and should be made available. Both the reasons that caused the Mil to create a PETF are equally valid for 121.5
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Its proberly going to come down to money as usual.
All the 121.5 transmiters / DF receivers upgraded to work on 2 freq's, a extra set of boxes in D&D all the cabling "stuff" to pipe the extra about the country.
The Mil got there system years ago when the cold war was on and money wasn't as much of an issue as it is today. I wonder if they decided today that they required a freq networked for the whole of the UK if they would get it.
All the 121.5 transmiters / DF receivers upgraded to work on 2 freq's, a extra set of boxes in D&D all the cabling "stuff" to pipe the extra about the country.
The Mil got there system years ago when the cold war was on and money wasn't as much of an issue as it is today. I wonder if they decided today that they required a freq networked for the whole of the UK if they would get it.
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It would appear to be too difficult for the CAA to either fund another frequency for training fixes in the UK or, indeed, cannot find one that is not in use already. D&D are already monitoring two frequencies 243.0 mhz (Mil) and 121.5 mhz (Civ).
Mind you, even if Guard was left for Actual Emergencies only, They would still be distracting to those not involved.
Perhaps, the only other solution is to have a 3rd person in CAT aircraft to monitor 121.5. I guess in the old days; a Flight Engineer or Third pilot could have done so leaving the other pilots to concentrate on box one.
Can't see the bean counters liking that one though!
(Edited to say I was unaware of a mil training fix freq. I left the RAF in 1991 - so obviously out of date now!)
Mind you, even if Guard was left for Actual Emergencies only, They would still be distracting to those not involved.
Perhaps, the only other solution is to have a 3rd person in CAT aircraft to monitor 121.5. I guess in the old days; a Flight Engineer or Third pilot could have done so leaving the other pilots to concentrate on box one.
Can't see the bean counters liking that one though!
(Edited to say I was unaware of a mil training fix freq. I left the RAF in 1991 - so obviously out of date now!)
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Are all London (and let's face it, damn near all UK) ATC terminal frequencies sometimes very busy indeed much if not most of the time?
- Yes
Does even the most professional pilot sometimes get a frequency transfer wrong and end up 'in limbo', even if only for a few minutes?
- Certainly
Is this an ideal situation, particularly in a really busy TMA?
-Certainly not
Is the procedure that most, (but, from reading some posts here, certainly not all) pilots and airlines employ, to have one radio always tuned to 121.5 not a safe and sure way to ensure that ATC can immediately contact any such an aircraft with minimum delay and therefore minimum disruption?
- Well I would have thought so.
Would any pilot in his right mind object to a low time PPL (or Chuck *** Yeager!) who is is unsure of his position calling in a PAN on 121.5?
- N-O!!!
But....
Do Practice Pans unnecessarily clutter up an - the - emergency frequency, causing many people within range to switch the frequency off or lower the volume to the point where its facility would be lost should ATC need to contact any one of those many aircraft?
- Yer darn tootin' they do.
The D&D triangulation facility is a fantastic aid for anyone unfortunate enough to get caught short in the UK's sometimes very changeable weather. But if it is as important as many here insist it is, surely a dedicated (or, given the shortage of frequencies, a not often used or not so critical) frequency can be found for practice PANS so that 121.5 can be kept solely for actual emergencies or critical re-establishment of comms with 'in limbo' aircraft.
- Yes
Does even the most professional pilot sometimes get a frequency transfer wrong and end up 'in limbo', even if only for a few minutes?
- Certainly
Is this an ideal situation, particularly in a really busy TMA?
-Certainly not
Is the procedure that most, (but, from reading some posts here, certainly not all) pilots and airlines employ, to have one radio always tuned to 121.5 not a safe and sure way to ensure that ATC can immediately contact any such an aircraft with minimum delay and therefore minimum disruption?
- Well I would have thought so.
Would any pilot in his right mind object to a low time PPL (or Chuck *** Yeager!) who is is unsure of his position calling in a PAN on 121.5?
- N-O!!!
But....
Do Practice Pans unnecessarily clutter up an - the - emergency frequency, causing many people within range to switch the frequency off or lower the volume to the point where its facility would be lost should ATC need to contact any one of those many aircraft?
- Yer darn tootin' they do.
The D&D triangulation facility is a fantastic aid for anyone unfortunate enough to get caught short in the UK's sometimes very changeable weather. But if it is as important as many here insist it is, surely a dedicated (or, given the shortage of frequencies, a not often used or not so critical) frequency can be found for practice PANS so that 121.5 can be kept solely for actual emergencies or critical re-establishment of comms with 'in limbo' aircraft.
Shytorque - that would be me then.
On the one hand all airline pilots are told that they must monitor 121.5 at all times on pain of being shot at by the Military.
On the other hand trying to monitor 121.5 at all times is WHILST using another radio is rendered near impossible on a nice sunny Sunday over the UK due to the near constant stream of GA use of 121.5.
That's the nub of the issue. It is not a fault or blame issue. Its simply flight safety.
Cheers
WWW
On the one hand all airline pilots are told that they must monitor 121.5 at all times on pain of being shot at by the Military.
On the other hand trying to monitor 121.5 at all times is WHILST using another radio is rendered near impossible on a nice sunny Sunday over the UK due to the near constant stream of GA use of 121.5.
That's the nub of the issue. It is not a fault or blame issue. Its simply flight safety.
Cheers
WWW
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Did hear a couple of Korean Air pilots babbling in Korean on 121.5 a couple of months ago. One called the other in english and I figured they would then go to a different frequency but then the Korean started.
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WWW with the stats given in that report there are 160 calls for training a month which works out at about 6 a day.
As the report says each call lasts a Min. This isn't a number that they made up its a fact which has proberly cost 1000's of pounds to prove.
So on Sunday you might get 40 mins of calls in the space of 10 hours.
The percieved constant stream proberly isn't. If it wasn't for the fact that most of the calls were using cringing RT you would have tuned them out. A bit like if you hear a poor bookin on box one. If the other aircraft had given a standard call eg callsign, passing level, level cleared and sid. You hardly even registered it was made but if you hear callsign ,err um, sid ,er um, something which isn't required. Your attention is drawn to it with a proffesional tut tut.
Anyway even if they did get a seperate frq and all the flashy stuff. 2 weeks later the next moan would start. To much background noise on on 121.5 its not squelched on the standard settings. Have to turn the box down so it doesn't distract me, or something else equally problomatic solving. Or something that the CAA really can't do anything about eg none G reg aircraft using it for anything other than emergency.
It keeps the equipment working and as we all know elecy stuff doesn't like being left on standby for long periods. It train's the low hour pilots, it trains the controllers, and I have a suspision as well that the fact it annoys BA captains to frothing point it will been seen as another good reason to keep it as it is.
SRG are proberly quite happy to let this run and run. They have a good safety case for maintaining it as it is. And at least it deflects and keeps the moans away from subjects they wouldn't have as strong case and would be technically and more expensive to solve.
As the report says each call lasts a Min. This isn't a number that they made up its a fact which has proberly cost 1000's of pounds to prove.
So on Sunday you might get 40 mins of calls in the space of 10 hours.
The percieved constant stream proberly isn't. If it wasn't for the fact that most of the calls were using cringing RT you would have tuned them out. A bit like if you hear a poor bookin on box one. If the other aircraft had given a standard call eg callsign, passing level, level cleared and sid. You hardly even registered it was made but if you hear callsign ,err um, sid ,er um, something which isn't required. Your attention is drawn to it with a proffesional tut tut.
Anyway even if they did get a seperate frq and all the flashy stuff. 2 weeks later the next moan would start. To much background noise on on 121.5 its not squelched on the standard settings. Have to turn the box down so it doesn't distract me, or something else equally problomatic solving. Or something that the CAA really can't do anything about eg none G reg aircraft using it for anything other than emergency.
It keeps the equipment working and as we all know elecy stuff doesn't like being left on standby for long periods. It train's the low hour pilots, it trains the controllers, and I have a suspision as well that the fact it annoys BA captains to frothing point it will been seen as another good reason to keep it as it is.
SRG are proberly quite happy to let this run and run. They have a good safety case for maintaining it as it is. And at least it deflects and keeps the moans away from subjects they wouldn't have as strong case and would be technically and more expensive to solve.
Last edited by mad_jock; 20th May 2006 at 12:25.
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The MoD introduced a PETF (Practice Emergency Training Frequency) in the early 90's (1993 I think), which was just after the 'Options for Change' and 'Front Line First' rounds of spending cuts, when money certainly wasn't around in abundance (compulsory redundancies in several tranches were run).
As far as I'm aware, the receivers etc don't need to be upgraded or need more pipework, but an extra radio box at the other end is required and the ability to transfer the new DF onto their 'big picture' of the UK would need to be installed - hardly bank breaking I'd like to think. The difficult bit would be getting a common freq UK wide.
As far as I'm aware, the receivers etc don't need to be upgraded or need more pipework, but an extra radio box at the other end is required and the ability to transfer the new DF onto their 'big picture' of the UK would need to be installed - hardly bank breaking I'd like to think. The difficult bit would be getting a common freq UK wide.
A lot has been said..
Yet I still cannot understand the safety aspect of this whole homing business. Chaps, the Great War is over! We are not flying Lancasters anymore eventhough I am sure they had better navigational solutions!
Teach your students some basic VOR navigation, let them buy a handheld GPS, even an ordinary PDA with a TomTom moving map will do. Even more, it will prevent you getting lost in the first place.
This homing is a thing of the past.
Yet I still cannot understand the safety aspect of this whole homing business. Chaps, the Great War is over! We are not flying Lancasters anymore eventhough I am sure they had better navigational solutions!
Teach your students some basic VOR navigation, let them buy a handheld GPS, even an ordinary PDA with a TomTom moving map will do. Even more, it will prevent you getting lost in the first place.
This homing is a thing of the past.
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Mike,
I think you're missing the point perhaps?
The issue isn't about ways of getting through to company ops - and if you're making an approach in a busy TMA, perhaps the priority should be to turn UP 121.5 as that may be the only available frequency for ATC to get through to you on due frequency congestion?
Just my tuppence worth.
Regards.
I think you're missing the point perhaps?
The issue isn't about ways of getting through to company ops - and if you're making an approach in a busy TMA, perhaps the priority should be to turn UP 121.5 as that may be the only available frequency for ATC to get through to you on due frequency congestion?
Just my tuppence worth.
Regards.
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In the 12 years I have held a PPL, I have used the training fix facility once.
At the time, I was very low houred and couldn't establish a precise visual fix in haze over featureless terrain near controlled airspace near Stansted.
At the time, I was very low houred and couldn't establish a precise visual fix in haze over featureless terrain near controlled airspace near Stansted.
I think that everybody is overreacting to this, sometimes it is neccessary to turn 121.5 down for a few moments, then you turn it up again.
It's not rocket science.
PETF 243.8 was in use from the early '70's. Few if any civil ATC units can Tx/Rx on 121.5 so arguments that ATC can 'easily' contact an aircraft listening on it are pointless; the ATC unit involved would need to phone D & D to establish contact with the aircraft first and that would take time, especially if they were busy.
Avoid imitations
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Originally Posted by fmgc
3 Greens, surley that is not a traiing fix but a "real" fix.
I think that everybody is overreacting to this, sometimes it is neccessary to turn 121.5 down for a few moments, then you turn it up again.
It's not rocket science.
I think that everybody is overreacting to this, sometimes it is neccessary to turn 121.5 down for a few moments, then you turn it up again.
It's not rocket science.
If a call on 121.5 is interfering with calls on the other radio, surely there is no flight safety issue with regard to "lost contact" because the aircraft is already in contact with ATC on the other box. It's a CRM issue, not a fault of the UK system.
I look upon the regular "distractions" on 121.5 (mainly inattentive airline pilots, exactly as the FODCOM says) as a positive thing - I know the radio is tuned and ready for use. If we turn the volume down if necessary - then we turn it up again, shortly afterwards.
BTW, What happened to "Select, Tune and Identify"?
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<<turn UP 121.5 as that may be the only available frequency for ATC to get through to you on due frequency congestion?>>
With the usual proviso that I've been retired a while and procedures may have changed... During my 31 years in UK ATC I was never trained to, and never trained anyone, to even think of using 121.5 to contact an aircraft when the normal frequency was busy, or for any other reason. In the event of a radio failure we would ask the company if they had contact, but never ever use 121.5. 121.5 is an EMERGENCY frequency, plain and simple.
With the usual proviso that I've been retired a while and procedures may have changed... During my 31 years in UK ATC I was never trained to, and never trained anyone, to even think of using 121.5 to contact an aircraft when the normal frequency was busy, or for any other reason. In the event of a radio failure we would ask the company if they had contact, but never ever use 121.5. 121.5 is an EMERGENCY frequency, plain and simple.
Controversial, moi?
The arrogance and pomposity in this thread is truly astounding.
Did all you sky gods become perfect from day one? Do none of you recall nervousness using the unfamiliar radio while being taught to fly?
I used to teach PPLs and have also been lost when I was a PPL. The feeling of terror that it invokes in a low houred newbie out of his depth should not be forgotten. A small familiarisation with D & D procedures has no doubt saved small problems becoming more serious.
I find the ceaseless inane chat on the Atlantic on 123.45 far more irritating than a newbie practising what one day may save his or her life.
Did all you sky gods become perfect from day one? Do none of you recall nervousness using the unfamiliar radio while being taught to fly?
I used to teach PPLs and have also been lost when I was a PPL. The feeling of terror that it invokes in a low houred newbie out of his depth should not be forgotten. A small familiarisation with D & D procedures has no doubt saved small problems becoming more serious.
I find the ceaseless inane chat on the Atlantic on 123.45 far more irritating than a newbie practising what one day may save his or her life.
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Originally Posted by demobcurious
The MoD introduced a PETF (Practice Emergency Training Frequency) in the early 90's (1993 I think), which was just after the 'Options for Change' and 'Front Line First' rounds of spending cuts, when money certainly wasn't around in abundance (compulsory redundancies in several tranches were run).
As far as I'm aware, the receivers etc don't need to be upgraded or need more pipework, but an extra radio box at the other end is required and the ability to transfer the new DF onto their 'big picture' of the UK would need to be installed - hardly bank breaking I'd like to think.
Who would pay for this??
The difficult bit would be getting a common freq UK wide.
This has recently been discussed in the ATC forum here
BD
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Originally Posted by chevvron
the ATC unit involved would need to phone D & D to establish contact with the aircraft first and that would take time, especially if they were busy.
I whitnessed once a landing clearance being issued on the 121.5 (in Porto) to an aircraft on finals.
Just before that he was told to switch over from approach to tower, and from that moment on, he was unreachable. So instead of letting the aircraft go in the Missed Approach, someone got creative and made the call on 121.5. So somehow this switching/requesting to make calls on 121.5 doesn't take all ATC units a long time.
Edited for chevvron. If still unclear, I'll edit again!
Last edited by klink; 20th May 2006 at 18:46.
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Originally Posted by mad_jock
Well I have a had 3 requests to do practise pans from Scottish area to use 121.5.
They asked if we would help then told us that our transponder was knackard when we were asked to squawk by the controller.
They asked if we would help then told us that our transponder was knackard when we were asked to squawk by the controller.
Its up to D&D to decide whats acceptable or unacceptable for the emergency frequency to be used for.
BD