SRA Approaches

[captainpaddy]

Two Questions:

During an SRA approach can anyone tell me what the following phrases are intended to mean and what the appropriate responses are:

"Check Wheels" - During the latter stages (3 or 4 miles out) I presume that you should respond with "Gear down" or "Three Greens" but what about when it is asked before the approach commences??

"Report checks complete" - During the latter stages I presume "Cockpit Checks Complete" would be an appropriate response, but what about before the approach when your landing checks are not completed yet??

CAP 413 does not seem to tell me what I want to know!!!!

[Dream Land]

As a controller in the USN many years ago, sounds like you did the Surveillance Approach at a military field in the UK? Phraseology is different over here but similar.

[VCR]

The UK MATS Part 1 (for Civil ATC) still says: 'Aircraft making a radar approach shall be reminded, when on final approach, to check their wheels.'

'Three greens' will suffice as a reply.

[chevvron]

The 'report cockpit checks complete' is definitely UK military phraseology; it's really for use with PAR but in the interest of standardisation of phraeology, it's used for all types of GCA.

[H Peacock]

Notwithstanding the earlier posts, the norm in the military world is to be told by ATC to "report checks complete" during the director's feed-in to the localiser/PAR/SRA, usually 20-15nm from touch-down. Once established on the glidepath (electronic or from talkdown controller) at about 4nm you are asked "check gear".

Not uncommon to reply "delaying checks", "checks to come" or "gear to come". You won't, however, get clearance to land unless you've confirmed that the gear is down.

We got rid of "3 greens" years ago!

[SixDelta]

"Cockpit checks, report complete", a response of "limited checks complete" seems to satisfy UK Mil ATC requirements. They will still require a check of "gear down" at some point during the approach.

6D

[captainpaddy]

Thanks for all the replies.

Just flew a PAR approach to a UK airport the other day. Controller gave no indication of descent point and no info on altitudes versus range at any stage. She also continued with azimuth guidance until we were at 30 feet in the flare!! Never seen anything like it! Is this normal?????

[Dream Land]

I'm no controller in the UK but here's my thoughts, I would think she would have said something like: "Seven miles from touchdown, prepare to begin descent", "approaching glide path begin descent". From there on it would be something like "on glide path, on course", "slightly above glide path, five miles from touchdown". That would be close to what the phraseology should be to the point where you would be instructed to take over visually. The altitudes you refer to are on the ASR (UK SRA) approach, like "four miles from runway, altitude should be XXXX. Giving course guidance at that point doesn't sound right but I was USN GCA person.

[BOAC]

Just flew a PAR approach to a UK airport the other day. Controller gave no indication of descent point and no info on altitudes versus range at any stage.

- I think you are confused, somewhere, Captain?

1) Descent point - why did you descend, then?
2) altitudes v range - not given on a PAR - GP and azimuth directions only

'Talkdowns to touchdown' not uncommon for real PARs in my experience ('normally' stopped at 200' with azimuth guidance only below). A few centuries ago my Jet Provost QFI had me fly one to touchdown 'under the hood'. (We got the grass stains off the wheels )

[captainpaddy]

Thanks for the posts guys.

I am unfamiliar with the SRA / PAR differences in the UK so I am learning slowly. I didn't realise that altitude/range checks were not given on a PAR. Am I correct then to assume that you may not get any glidepath info from the controller if you are on the profile or would they advise you occasionally that you are "on glidepath"?

Also, do you generally respond to instructions for an SRA only (unless they tell you otherwise)???

BOAC, descended cos we were VMC and saw that we were going above the profile.

[BOAC]

In my experience (limited to PARs/SRAs in military only and SRAs civil also, plus one 'Civvy' PAR at a military base)

1) Constant GP/azimuth info, either 'On' or directions to regain

2) no requirement on either SRA or PAR to respond unless asked to ie 'check gear down'/'report visual', etc

3) Descending while under ?IFR? control, even if VMC, without instruction could blow a few ATC fuses, I fancy

[throw a dyce]

You have to remember what type of aircraft your talking to.Say ''Check wheels'' to a Cessna,Twin Otter,or Islander often gets the response ''down and welded''.
I think it was introduced after someone bellied one in off a SRA.

[chevvron]

When I used to do PAR's, I used to say '1 mile to glidepath, prepare to lose height' so you guys could get ready with gear/flaps/power (choose whichever you use to initiate descent) It was common after the 'cockpit checks advise complete' for pilots to reply 'wheels on the glidepath' (so the director would write 'WOG' on the strip!) then between 3 and 4 miles you'd transmit 'final checks to land - acknowledge'.
PAR to touchdown could be carried out in emergency, although at places with civilian controllers such as Boscombe, Bedford and Farnborough, Director of Flying (MOD PE becoming DPA) authorised talkdowns to touchdown at any time if the controller decided the radar picture was capable of supporting it.
I did do it, reasoning that sometime one of you guys might have a cracked windscreen/dense smoke in cockpit or anything else that might obscure the visual references, so the more practice I got, the easier it would be in an emergency. I also added 'over the end of the runway' to indicate there was pavement beneath if you wanted to drop it on in emergency.
Unfortunately, nobody told me what was happening when I was recorded for a Discovery Wings programme, so now my voice is heard occasionally on TV (and I don't get royalties)!!

[santiago15]

Controller gave no indication of descent point

You should hear something along the lines of "Begin descent now for a 3 degree glide path"

[SAR Bloke]

When asked 'cockpit checks report complete' I respond Wilco and then call 'checks complete' when they are done. If they are already complete I say 'checks ARE complete', with the emphasis on ARE. I never respond to the initial request 'checks complete' as I believe that there is scope for misunderstanding (am I acknowledging that I will report when checks complete or that I have already done them).

On final approach (some time after ATC say 'do not acknowledge further instructions unless requested') they should say 'check gear, acknowledge' to which any response of 'three greens' or 'gear down' should suffice. You may also get a 'cleared to land, acknowledge' call which is self explanatory.

As others have said, you should get a 'begin descent now for a three degree glidepath'. If you don't get this then don't descend. If ATC have forgotten they will have to feed you in again. For a PAR you should get the following glidepath info, on glidepath, slightly below glidepath, below glidepath, well below glidepath-acknowledge (and the opposite for above glidepath). The final call requires you to say 'acknowledge' or something similar and is just a safety check.

For SRA, as has been mentioned, you are told your range and target height and it is up to you to make it.

Finally, without teaching you to suck eggs (as I don't know your experience) but if you don't know the differences between the two then get someone who does, to fly them with you and teach you how they work (I assume you are instrument rated?). There are some technical differences that haven't been mentioned here, such as PAR being a precision approach and having a DH whereas SRA is non-precision and has a MDH.

All these comments refer to military approach. I can't remember having flown a civvy PAR (or SRA for that matter) and the terminology at civilian fields is different. Be aware that if you are at a military field you will most likely be set up to approach on QFE unless you ask otherwise. At a civvy field you should be on QNH unless you are asked otherwise. You really don't want to get this wrong.

I hope this helps.

[error_401]

Heard the following request phrases on PAR approach.

"Report vital elements completed"

took us 5 secs to figure that one out but fortunately we fly military airfields all once in a while.

The controller was happy with the response "Gear is down and locked - checks completed".

error