Ryanair pilot assesses snowy braking action!
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Pilot Pete
You summed up the situation exactly. It really is about time that pilots started viewing their action with the thought in the front of their minds "What would I tell the accident investigator".
You summed up the situation exactly. It really is about time that pilots started viewing their action with the thought in the front of their minds "What would I tell the accident investigator".
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SORRY GUYS BUT IN MY HUMBLE OPINION THE CAPT OF THIS A/C HAD NO BUSINESS BEING DRIVEN OUT ONTO THE SNOWY/ICY RUNWAY. AFTER LIVING AND WORKING IN SNOW ALL MY LIFE YOU CANNOT MAKE A CREDIBLE JUDGEMENT OF RUNWAY CONDITIONS FROM THE FRONT SEAT OF A LAND ROVER. THERE IS ONE HELL OF A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SLAMMING ON THE BRAKES ON A LAND ROVER IN SNOW THAN TRYING TO ATTEMPT A T/0FF IN THESE CONDITIONS IN A HEAVILY LADEN B737-800.
ESPECIALLLY WHEN YOU HAVE TO ABORT--NOT SMART.
ESPECIALLLY WHEN YOU HAVE TO ABORT--NOT SMART.
Monton
Isn't that what everyone is saying? At some airports that is exactly how the B/A is measured! A braking car is not really representative of a 150 ton jet. Additonally the MU meter readings often produce variable and misleading results in wet snow and slush.....Going out to view the runway - good airmanship IMHO.
Isn't that what everyone is saying? At some airports that is exactly how the B/A is measured! A braking car is not really representative of a 150 ton jet. Additonally the MU meter readings often produce variable and misleading results in wet snow and slush.....Going out to view the runway - good airmanship IMHO.
No reason why a captain should not go out, have a look and use what is seen as part of the decision making process.
Do recollect similar situation when Land Rover skidded into blade of snowplough, captain broke thumb, flight cancelled. Decisions made easy
Do recollect similar situation when Land Rover skidded into blade of snowplough, captain broke thumb, flight cancelled. Decisions made easy
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I really think if people are going to sound off about this, they should say from what viewpoint they are speaking! I am a retired medium/widebody pilot with getting on to 20,000 hours. It is an accepted part of BA procedure for the pilot to go out and inspect the actual runway conditions. It is not done from the back seat of a Landrover. It entails several different sampling areas and assessing what lies under the snow and how deep snow and slush is. Unless frequent operations are already taking place, it is a valid and reliable procedure for someone who knows what they are doing and what they are looking for, and is well catered for and fully described in the contaminated take-off performance books on the aeroplane. It is a procedure that has shown no sign of unreliability. Those very people who know nothing about this and see fit to make comment will be the loudest people to complain when all ops are halted at the first sign of a snowflake! The aim of the game is to keep public transport flowing.
Please would people who know nothing about it or aircraft performance stop interjecting! We have quite enough flight simmers/self appointed aviation experts sounding off with opinions here as it is. That idiotic first post takes the biscuit. Who are you KtT? Do you know it is not for ATC to forbid a runway inspection or close airfields?- ATC passes on the weather for the pilot to make his own judgement. I'm glad Ryanair did operate, and safely- he took the care to assess for himself and come to a safe decision. He also followed company procedures presumably, just as they are BA procedures too! Kinda makes your thundering look a bit daft doesn't it?
Please would people who know nothing about it or aircraft performance stop interjecting! We have quite enough flight simmers/self appointed aviation experts sounding off with opinions here as it is. That idiotic first post takes the biscuit. Who are you KtT? Do you know it is not for ATC to forbid a runway inspection or close airfields?- ATC passes on the weather for the pilot to make his own judgement. I'm glad Ryanair did operate, and safely- he took the care to assess for himself and come to a safe decision. He also followed company procedures presumably, just as they are BA procedures too! Kinda makes your thundering look a bit daft doesn't it?
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I was always taught that good decision making comes from gathering all the information available, assessing the options open to you and then deciding on the most appropriate option based around the situation you face. If you can't comply with the rules then your decision is made for you.
Unfortunately, your decisions may subsequently be disected by people with greater knoewledge and experience, under no time pressure and with many more resources available to them, so you had better bear this in mind when assessing the risks and coming to your conclusions.
Braking action measurement may well be flawed, but it is the best info I can get regarding the runway state and the associated risks should I need to reject. A ride in a car may well allow me to have a closer look, get a feel for what the car behaves like under braking etc, but it is not an exact science, so I will stick to my company procedures, which comply with JAR-OPS and request a braking action report. If that throws any doubt upon the suitability of the surface then I won't be going anywhere until such time as something has changed for the better.
I always think how I can justify my decisions in a court of law (should I be lucky enough to survive) and that sometimes helps with the go/no-go decision. I am lucky to work for an employer that genuinely says "if you are in any doubt, DON'T DO IT".
Another point is that in the UK we are not as experienced at true Winter Ops. Luckily we have a sister airline in the group based in Scandinavia, where obviously Winter Ops is their forte and we have been briefed and amended some of our SOPs based on their greater experience. This captain may well be Scandinavian for all we know (there are a lot of them about in UK/ Irish aviation these days!) and may well have much more experience than the likes of cautious old me.
The main thing is KEEP IT SAFE, within the rules and your own limitations, your crew limitations and any other factors which influence your ability to do so. There has been no evidence thus far that has convinced me that this fellow professional hadn't done just that.
PP
Unfortunately, your decisions may subsequently be disected by people with greater knoewledge and experience, under no time pressure and with many more resources available to them, so you had better bear this in mind when assessing the risks and coming to your conclusions.
Braking action measurement may well be flawed, but it is the best info I can get regarding the runway state and the associated risks should I need to reject. A ride in a car may well allow me to have a closer look, get a feel for what the car behaves like under braking etc, but it is not an exact science, so I will stick to my company procedures, which comply with JAR-OPS and request a braking action report. If that throws any doubt upon the suitability of the surface then I won't be going anywhere until such time as something has changed for the better.
I always think how I can justify my decisions in a court of law (should I be lucky enough to survive) and that sometimes helps with the go/no-go decision. I am lucky to work for an employer that genuinely says "if you are in any doubt, DON'T DO IT".
Another point is that in the UK we are not as experienced at true Winter Ops. Luckily we have a sister airline in the group based in Scandinavia, where obviously Winter Ops is their forte and we have been briefed and amended some of our SOPs based on their greater experience. This captain may well be Scandinavian for all we know (there are a lot of them about in UK/ Irish aviation these days!) and may well have much more experience than the likes of cautious old me.
The main thing is KEEP IT SAFE, within the rules and your own limitations, your crew limitations and any other factors which influence your ability to do so. There has been no evidence thus far that has convinced me that this fellow professional hadn't done just that.
PP
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What will you tell everyone?
Originally Posted by sky9
Pilot Pete
You summed up the situation exactly. It really is about time that pilots started viewing their action with the thought in the front of their minds "What would I tell the accident investigator".
You summed up the situation exactly. It really is about time that pilots started viewing their action with the thought in the front of their minds "What would I tell the accident investigator".
I have observed, as a passenger in a Ryanair aircraft, being loaded in a thunderstorm across an open ramp, and then taking off when the runway was flooded. What was wrong with that? Well the airport had no method of being able to tell the pilot of the depth of water and of the braking action. I know, I had just finished asking such questions of ATC/airport operator. Was it a good decision? Well, if the crew had factored in the loss of lift from the high rate of rainfall, and had taken into account the rejected take-off stopping distances for decision speeds as well as the additional tyre drag for acceleration, then OK. Was I comfortable, NO.
There are huge problems in relation to the application of Annex 3,11 and 14 to modern aircraft operations. ATC might not have the power to stop an aircraft from going, but the airport operator does, in such weather conditions. The airport operator may decide to close the airport.
Is taking a look in a vehicle a good idea, yep, why not? Should it be the only basis of decision making, no. The aircraft operator is required to audit the airport. Therefore, the company should have decided under what conditions of slush depth (where no Mu meter reliable readings can be taken from certain types of apparatus) and so on, were acceptable. All that the aircraft commander has to do is to look up the airport specific table, compare the facts and the criteria and make a decision.
Do the airlines provide you with the criteria? Do they provide you with practical slush assessment training on your ATPL theory courses? Does your safety management system state where you have individual responsibility and where the company has responsibility in this area? If you are unsure in this area, then you might have difficulty in the event of an accident.
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MONCTON FIR,
I respect your post. However since you have had a lot of experience in adverse weather I would say you have been surrounded by people who have good knowledge of adverse weather also; ATC, Airfield OPS etc.
Here in the UK, Airports tend to shut at the first sign of snowfall. Runways are given as WET WET WET when really they are only damp or even dry sometimes.
I flew into a airfield this week that was giving medium/poor on the taxiways. Only until we landed and saw the taxiway, it was infact dry and the information was old depsite being on the latest ATIS.
We are NOT used to serious adverse weather in the UK. I believe the Capt has every right to go and inspect a taxiway or runway if he or she so wishes.
I respect your post. However since you have had a lot of experience in adverse weather I would say you have been surrounded by people who have good knowledge of adverse weather also; ATC, Airfield OPS etc.
Here in the UK, Airports tend to shut at the first sign of snowfall. Runways are given as WET WET WET when really they are only damp or even dry sometimes.
I flew into a airfield this week that was giving medium/poor on the taxiways. Only until we landed and saw the taxiway, it was infact dry and the information was old depsite being on the latest ATIS.
We are NOT used to serious adverse weather in the UK. I believe the Capt has every right to go and inspect a taxiway or runway if he or she so wishes.
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Pilot Pete
Another point is that in the UK we are not as experienced at true Winter Ops.
While it may be true that you and your company don't do much winter stuff, remember that some UK and Irish companies operate scheduled services to all sorts of cold and snowy places and have a great deal of experience with contaminated runways and winter ops.
I think it may be fair to say that UK airports are not as adept at handling snow and slush as the northern europeans and this may lead to a certain amount of frustration by crews, hence the runway inspection, but the prevailing weather in the UK hardly merits the investment in snow monitoring and clearing equipment and training that our northern colleagues rely on continuously for 3 months every year!!
Roll on global warming.
No. 9
Thread Starter
on the day in question, as soon as the snow clearing team had finished clearing the runway they had to start all over again because of the intensity of the snow showers.
How is anyone able to determine that the braking action is 'MED/POOR' (allowed) as oppose to POOR (not allowed)?? They arent and therefore safety is erroded/non-existent.
Such an assesment is one persons variable that HAS to be left to instruments.
Its totally different to a crew taxiing out to a runway and making an assessment of visibility, when for instance no RVR reporting is available; count the lights and you have an exact figure. Riding in a car on a runway and saying, yeh thats ok, is not an exact science!
How is anyone able to determine that the braking action is 'MED/POOR' (allowed) as oppose to POOR (not allowed)?? They arent and therefore safety is erroded/non-existent.
Such an assesment is one persons variable that HAS to be left to instruments.
Its totally different to a crew taxiing out to a runway and making an assessment of visibility, when for instance no RVR reporting is available; count the lights and you have an exact figure. Riding in a car on a runway and saying, yeh thats ok, is not an exact science!
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Originally Posted by Alycidon
While it may be true that you and your company don't do much winter stuff, remember that some UK and Irish companies operate scheduled services to all sorts of cold and snowy places and have a great deal of experience with contaminated runways and winter ops.
Originally Posted by kick the tires
Riding in a car on a runway and saying, yeh thats ok, is not an exact science!
I must admit I cannot quite see the value in it though, because if the airport are saying BA is POOR, hence nobody going anywhere and you go out in the car and make your own judgement that it's not that bad, I can't see how you could justify going anyhow. The lawyers would have a field day in the event of an incident. I personally think I would only use a personal observation to get Airfield Ops to carry out a further test if I felt it had improved since their last report (presumably of conditions which meant T/Os were not occuring), or more likely to downgrade an airfield report where I felt the conditions appeared to be worse than ATC were passing.
Anyhow, does anyone have the SA Wx at the time in question, especially ATC passed BA reports?
PP
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[quote=kick the tires]
To everyones amazement a Ryanair Captain managed to persuade ATC to let him have a ride in their car in order to 'test' the braking action himself!!!
I'm still trying to work out exactly which ATCO it was that went out in our car on the runway. 2 reasons why this post is crap:
1: We (ATC) don't do the runway inspections. Anyone who has been at Liverpool will realise why, given the position of 'airside' to the new tower.
2: The only car that we (ATC) have at our disposal is an 'S' reg Ford Fiesta, with no markings, or orange lights. Not likely to be much use on an active runway full stop. Never mind one covered in a blanket of snow.....
To everyones amazement a Ryanair Captain managed to persuade ATC to let him have a ride in their car in order to 'test' the braking action himself!!!
I'm still trying to work out exactly which ATCO it was that went out in our car on the runway. 2 reasons why this post is crap:
1: We (ATC) don't do the runway inspections. Anyone who has been at Liverpool will realise why, given the position of 'airside' to the new tower.
2: The only car that we (ATC) have at our disposal is an 'S' reg Ford Fiesta, with no markings, or orange lights. Not likely to be much use on an active runway full stop. Never mind one covered in a blanket of snow.....
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=chipsncheese 2: The only car that we (ATC) have at our disposal is an 'S' reg Ford Fiesta, with no markings, or orange lights. Not likely to be much use on an active runway full stop. Never mind one covered in a blanket of snow.....[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I am being remiss in lumping everyone under the banner of ATC. Sorry. But you, as do all, obviously know that LJLI has more than an S reg Fiesta at its disposal.
But you have answered the whole issue really ..."never mind one covered in a blanket of snow"
Why do you think the other dozen or so aircraft waiting to depart called it a day?
[/QUOTE]Perhaps I am being remiss in lumping everyone under the banner of ATC. Sorry. But you, as do all, obviously know that LJLI has more than an S reg Fiesta at its disposal.
But you have answered the whole issue really ..."never mind one covered in a blanket of snow"
Why do you think the other dozen or so aircraft waiting to depart called it a day?
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The Ryanair captain sounds like the sort of man who gets out of the flight deck to check his own wings for snow and ice rather than accept someone elses report.
Why not carry out a visual inspection of the runway if you can!
Why not carry out a visual inspection of the runway if you can!
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Seems a reasonable request to me. UK Airports are restricted in the information they can supply as regards braking action on contaminated runways. In most cases you will find the reports are based on an assessment by an Ops/Ranger Vehicle. CAA Regs prohibit the use of Friction Measuring devices in Slush, uncompacted wet snow and standing water greater than 3mm depth. Furthermore they cannot be used when the air temp is less that PS02C.
FODCOM30/2005 and AIC61/1999 are useful docs.
Airports should be capable of providing sufficient data regarding the surface state and its suitability for aircraft operations - but if in doubt why not take a look for yourself! All credit to the FR pilot!.
FODCOM30/2005 and AIC61/1999 are useful docs.
Airports should be capable of providing sufficient data regarding the surface state and its suitability for aircraft operations - but if in doubt why not take a look for yourself! All credit to the FR pilot!.
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Originally Posted by kick the tires
But you have answered the whole issue really ..."never mind one covered in a blanket of snow"
Why do you think the other dozen or so aircraft waiting to depart called it a day?
Why do you think the other dozen or so aircraft waiting to depart called it a day?
Of the other dozen aircraft calling it a day, I would be inclined to wonder whether they made any attempt to personally assess the situation if their Ops manual so permits or whether they may have followed a herd instinct and ducked the decision! But to slate the Captain like you did was wrong.
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seems many of you have a lot of experience on contaminated runways -
could you please have a look to the question I have posted under the other thread "Wet Runway performance" for 737-pilots - thanks for your help
could you please have a look to the question I have posted under the other thread "Wet Runway performance" for 737-pilots - thanks for your help
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Some time ago we were taxing on the Runway for Take Off that was reported to be slippery with medium to good and some slush.
We did not believe them and insisted on a runway check.
Then the braking action was reported to be poor and contaminated with double the value that was reported first.
As far as I can see and understand Ryanair I think it's fair to say that, Ryanair is probably not the easiest airline to work for, but it surely is a character-building environment.
In other words it’s a no bull**** company and the positive side of it is that you do not accept any bull**** from others including ATC.
We did not believe them and insisted on a runway check.
Then the braking action was reported to be poor and contaminated with double the value that was reported first.
As far as I can see and understand Ryanair I think it's fair to say that, Ryanair is probably not the easiest airline to work for, but it surely is a character-building environment.
In other words it’s a no bull**** company and the positive side of it is that you do not accept any bull**** from others including ATC.
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Just because a runway is covered with contamination, it doesn't mean necessarily that braking and steerage is non existent. In a Classic 747 we were on final approach to a JFK completely covered in snow with heavy deposits on the runway. A preceeding landing DC-9 was asked for BA and his reply was 'nil'. The Captain and I looked at each other in horror and switched the autobrakes to Max. When we touched down, there was a pause while the wheels spun up, and then the brakes came on. It felt like we were going to go through the windscreen it was so strong- thrown forward like those astronauts in Apollo 13 when the main engine cut out. That is why peoples' assessments are not reliable and the only reliable way in the absence of a Mu reading is to get out there and see what there is and measure it.