The plastic Boeing 787
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The plastic Boeing 787
The following is an article from "The Times" of the 7th January 2006 which I found interesting. Obviously a sales-inspired broadside by Airbus, but worthy of mention. Perhaps others would care to comment.
Passenger aircraft rivals clash over safety of fuselage built from plastic
By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
THE world’s two leading aircraft manufacturers are engaged in a bitter dispute about the safety of a new airliner being made almost entirely from reinforced plastic.
Airbus has accused Boeing of making a giant leap without fully comprehending the risks of swapping metal for a composite of plastic and carbon fibre.
The Boeing 787 Dreamliner will be the first passenger jet with fuselage and wings made from composites rather than aluminium.
Composites can hide damage that can spread under the surface. The structure may appear sound until the moment it shatters. Reinforced plastic has been used for 20 years in the rudders and tailfins of airliners, but no manufacturer has previously dared to use it to make the fuselage.
Tennis rackets, fishing rods, bicycles and Formula One cars are often made from composites. But the 787, which will carry up to 300 people, will be the largest structure made from the material.
Airbus pioneered the use of composites in 1985 in the tailfin of the A310, and it is going a step farther in the A350, the rival to the 787, by making the wings from composites. But the European manufacturer, which will build the wings at Broughton, North Wales, has angered Boeing by asserting that the material is too risky to use composites for a fuselage.
Boeing is switching to reinforced plastic because it is cheaper to maintain and lighter than aluminium. Boeing says that the 787 will use 20 per cent less fuel and be 30 per cent cheaper to maintain than existing aircraft.
Boeing has previously been cautious about employing composites but intends to leapfrog Airbus in its use of them.
An Airbus spokesman said: “Boeing has missed out on several smaller steps in using composites so it is trying to do it in one giant leap. There is a certain amount of risk that goes with that.”
He said that the fuselage, unlike the wings, was prone to being damaged by impacts with luggage loaders, catering trucks and passenger jetways.
“You get a surprising amount of times when people dent or tear the fuselage skin by driving vehicles into it,” the Airbus spokesman said. “It’s more difficult to detect the extent of the damage with carbon fibre. You don’t know whether it has spread six, twelve or even twenty inches to the left or right.
“A metal component absorbs energy and deforms, so the damage tends to be localised. A carbon-fibre skin doesn’t deform before it breaks.”
Airbus has previously been forced to defend its own use of composites. The composite rudder of an Airbus A300 snapped shortly after take-off from JFK airport in New York in November 2001, causing a crash that killed 265 people. Investigators blamed the pilot’s excessive use of the rudder but have recently faced demands to reopen the inquiry after defects were found in the rudders of two other A300s. Airbus suggests that the 787 will be grounded for long periods for repairs because composites cannot be patched as easily as aluminium. Boeing believes that Airbus is trying to cause alarm among the airlines to boost sales of the A350.
The 787, which is scheduled to enter service in 2008, two years before the A350, has so far proved more popular among airlines, including Britain’s First Choice Airways. Airlines have ordered 291 787s, compared with 172 A350s.
Airbus has previously tried to exploit concerns over the safety of Boeing aircraft. Four years ago it claimed that four engines were better than two on long flights. The A340 has four engines and its Boeing rival, the 777, has two. Airbus dropped that claim after launching the A350, a long-haul aircraft that has two engines.
Dr Paul Robinson, head of the Composites Centre at Imperial College, said that layers of composite material could become separated without any visible change on the surface. He said: “You would be able to detect a dent by eye in a metal structure, but in a composite there may be no dent.”
However, he said that Boeing could counter the problem by making the composite fuselage so strong that it would resist all but the heaviest impacts. He said that strict inspection procedures would also be needed to ensure that the structure was properly checked after impacts.
The problem for Boeing is that, whereas a visual inspection is usually adequate for aluminium, a much more time-consuming ultrasound scan may be needed to detect underlying damage to composites. An airline that is under pressure to meet a tight schedule may be tempted to take risks and ignore apparently minor defects.
A Boeing spokesman said: “The composite fuselage will be so strong that if there is no visible damage, no repair will be required.”
Passenger aircraft rivals clash over safety of fuselage built from plastic
By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
THE world’s two leading aircraft manufacturers are engaged in a bitter dispute about the safety of a new airliner being made almost entirely from reinforced plastic.
Airbus has accused Boeing of making a giant leap without fully comprehending the risks of swapping metal for a composite of plastic and carbon fibre.
The Boeing 787 Dreamliner will be the first passenger jet with fuselage and wings made from composites rather than aluminium.
Composites can hide damage that can spread under the surface. The structure may appear sound until the moment it shatters. Reinforced plastic has been used for 20 years in the rudders and tailfins of airliners, but no manufacturer has previously dared to use it to make the fuselage.
Tennis rackets, fishing rods, bicycles and Formula One cars are often made from composites. But the 787, which will carry up to 300 people, will be the largest structure made from the material.
Airbus pioneered the use of composites in 1985 in the tailfin of the A310, and it is going a step farther in the A350, the rival to the 787, by making the wings from composites. But the European manufacturer, which will build the wings at Broughton, North Wales, has angered Boeing by asserting that the material is too risky to use composites for a fuselage.
Boeing is switching to reinforced plastic because it is cheaper to maintain and lighter than aluminium. Boeing says that the 787 will use 20 per cent less fuel and be 30 per cent cheaper to maintain than existing aircraft.
Boeing has previously been cautious about employing composites but intends to leapfrog Airbus in its use of them.
An Airbus spokesman said: “Boeing has missed out on several smaller steps in using composites so it is trying to do it in one giant leap. There is a certain amount of risk that goes with that.”
He said that the fuselage, unlike the wings, was prone to being damaged by impacts with luggage loaders, catering trucks and passenger jetways.
“You get a surprising amount of times when people dent or tear the fuselage skin by driving vehicles into it,” the Airbus spokesman said. “It’s more difficult to detect the extent of the damage with carbon fibre. You don’t know whether it has spread six, twelve or even twenty inches to the left or right.
“A metal component absorbs energy and deforms, so the damage tends to be localised. A carbon-fibre skin doesn’t deform before it breaks.”
Airbus has previously been forced to defend its own use of composites. The composite rudder of an Airbus A300 snapped shortly after take-off from JFK airport in New York in November 2001, causing a crash that killed 265 people. Investigators blamed the pilot’s excessive use of the rudder but have recently faced demands to reopen the inquiry after defects were found in the rudders of two other A300s. Airbus suggests that the 787 will be grounded for long periods for repairs because composites cannot be patched as easily as aluminium. Boeing believes that Airbus is trying to cause alarm among the airlines to boost sales of the A350.
The 787, which is scheduled to enter service in 2008, two years before the A350, has so far proved more popular among airlines, including Britain’s First Choice Airways. Airlines have ordered 291 787s, compared with 172 A350s.
Airbus has previously tried to exploit concerns over the safety of Boeing aircraft. Four years ago it claimed that four engines were better than two on long flights. The A340 has four engines and its Boeing rival, the 777, has two. Airbus dropped that claim after launching the A350, a long-haul aircraft that has two engines.
Dr Paul Robinson, head of the Composites Centre at Imperial College, said that layers of composite material could become separated without any visible change on the surface. He said: “You would be able to detect a dent by eye in a metal structure, but in a composite there may be no dent.”
However, he said that Boeing could counter the problem by making the composite fuselage so strong that it would resist all but the heaviest impacts. He said that strict inspection procedures would also be needed to ensure that the structure was properly checked after impacts.
The problem for Boeing is that, whereas a visual inspection is usually adequate for aluminium, a much more time-consuming ultrasound scan may be needed to detect underlying damage to composites. An airline that is under pressure to meet a tight schedule may be tempted to take risks and ignore apparently minor defects.
A Boeing spokesman said: “The composite fuselage will be so strong that if there is no visible damage, no repair will be required.”
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
But the European manufacturer, which will build the wings at Broughton,
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Boeing, it's time to kick out all your foreign English spies!!
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Boeing, it's time to kick out all your foreign English spies!!
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
Would the use of a paint that clearly shows impact level be of any use? Something with multiple layers of varying 'strength', may give a good indication of the possible level of internal damage.
Delamination was the biggest problem I've had with composite wing skins (model aircraft) and I always thought that a 3 dimensional weave would be a fine solution, especially with chunkier compaonents, but how to achieve this is another matter.
Delamination was the biggest problem I've had with composite wing skins (model aircraft) and I always thought that a 3 dimensional weave would be a fine solution, especially with chunkier compaonents, but how to achieve this is another matter.
Re: The plastic Boeing 787
Well, if that got dinged by some aircraft steps, catering truck or by some other careless airside idiot, the rest of the aircraft would be toast already....
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
Airbus does have a point.... its not like we're talking about a single component here..... Perhaps Boeing is dabling in too inmature an area of structures.... or are they putting their trust in the records of the Beech Starship?? I believe that was all composite...
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"There is a certain amount of risk that goes with that.”
When Airbus uses it there are no risks involved but when Boeing does, surely there is an amount of risk.
What a cheap propaganda. I strongly believe that the airlines that favored Boeing rather than Airbus have valued all aspects and conditions and aren't naive to be persuaded by claims such as these. This is surely a better aeroplane, Airbus have to work hard to come close and not choose cheap options for market promotions.
When Airbus uses it there are no risks involved but when Boeing does, surely there is an amount of risk.
What a cheap propaganda. I strongly believe that the airlines that favored Boeing rather than Airbus have valued all aspects and conditions and aren't naive to be persuaded by claims such as these. This is surely a better aeroplane, Airbus have to work hard to come close and not choose cheap options for market promotions.
Usual disclaimers apply!
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
GE90 fan blades are carbon composite, they seem to work pretty well . . . . at the moment!
except for the leading edge and trailing edge cappings!
except for the leading edge and trailing edge cappings!
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HI,
Does anyone with technical knowledge know how much carbon composite wings (I think I'm right in thinking the'll be that) flex compared with aluminium wings?? something tells me that I would prefer the wings of my plane to be made of metal. What is the largest currently certified aircraft with plastic wings?
Does anyone with technical knowledge know how much carbon composite wings (I think I'm right in thinking the'll be that) flex compared with aluminium wings?? something tells me that I would prefer the wings of my plane to be made of metal. What is the largest currently certified aircraft with plastic wings?
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The technology and application of composite structures (glass, carbon, kevlar, aramid etc.) is well understood and has been used in a sufficiently large number of applications to make this a low risk strategy. The inspection and repair techniques are also well practiced and understood. I'd suggest that this a good move. Tupperware is tough!
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Airbus is bending a pure carbon wing structure at its hamburg facility for around 8 years now and its doing pretty good still.
Still, its a propaganda thing especially since GLARE is a composite structure too, it just contains a bit metal still
Still, its a propaganda thing especially since GLARE is a composite structure too, it just contains a bit metal still
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Despite desperate comments to the contrary, a ding or ramp rash damage will not lead to catastrophic failure thanks to the structure and composition of the material used - unlike single layer metal structures, a crack in the outer layers of a composite structure will not expand appreciably nor deepen. Additionally, the carbon fibre composite system Boeing will use for the 787 is to be over engineered for strength and longevity of the airframe.
Repairs would be 2 phase if needed - traditional bolt on patch using common techniques will do until bonding (if needed) can be accomplished in an appropriately equipped shop at a later time.
What does concern me regarding the greater use of these materials in aircraft construction is the moisture issue and freeze/thaw cycles. According to at least one highly degreed expert in the field, this could be a serious problem for aging aircraft (specifically the A300 series) and (down the road) - the new 787 if it is not addressed in manufacture or maintenance implementation.
No squeeky allegations about this choice bit of data - but then rocks and glass houses and all............
Repairs would be 2 phase if needed - traditional bolt on patch using common techniques will do until bonding (if needed) can be accomplished in an appropriately equipped shop at a later time.
What does concern me regarding the greater use of these materials in aircraft construction is the moisture issue and freeze/thaw cycles. According to at least one highly degreed expert in the field, this could be a serious problem for aging aircraft (specifically the A300 series) and (down the road) - the new 787 if it is not addressed in manufacture or maintenance implementation.
No squeeky allegations about this choice bit of data - but then rocks and glass houses and all............
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
What is the largest currently certified aircraft with plastic wings?
33m wingspan, full carbon fibre wing, certified, in service for more than 10 years now.
and of course the SB10
29 m wingspan, carbon fibre inner wing, glass fibre outer wing, retired last year after 33 years in service.
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
But the 787........, will be the largest structure made from the material
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There is a huge difference between "plastic" and "composite". Calling it plastic is like calling beer water. OK, beer has water in it, but its not the same thing.
It also depends what sort of composite you are talking about, GRP, CRP, GLARE etc etc, they are made of different things.
The big thing for me is not so much inspection and repairs - its knowing your aeroplane has been hit by a ground truck. It is strange how no one ever sees anything happen, or how the last bloke who no one knows left the brakes off the truck etc etc. It will be easier to cover up a composite collision than a metal one.
Lightning strikes are a problem too, unless there is a mesh to conduct the current. See the AAIB investigation of the glider that was blown apart by lightning. Both skins were charged to the same polarity, they repelled each other so strongly that they flew apart.
It also depends what sort of composite you are talking about, GRP, CRP, GLARE etc etc, they are made of different things.
The big thing for me is not so much inspection and repairs - its knowing your aeroplane has been hit by a ground truck. It is strange how no one ever sees anything happen, or how the last bloke who no one knows left the brakes off the truck etc etc. It will be easier to cover up a composite collision than a metal one.
Lightning strikes are a problem too, unless there is a mesh to conduct the current. See the AAIB investigation of the glider that was blown apart by lightning. Both skins were charged to the same polarity, they repelled each other so strongly that they flew apart.
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
Lightning and static electricity concerns will be addressed on the new 787 with a conductive mesh system.
The KeV required for the glider incident to occur is quite likely not physically possible - arc-over would occur before the electrostatic repulsion force exceeded the bond strength of the composite. Most likely the true culprit is the heat and violence from an un-dissipated and direct lightning hit. Just my opinion as an amateur physicist.
Yes, but the word plastic has that certain, how do you say.....
Je ne sies Quoi ?
The KeV required for the glider incident to occur is quite likely not physically possible - arc-over would occur before the electrostatic repulsion force exceeded the bond strength of the composite. Most likely the true culprit is the heat and violence from an un-dissipated and direct lightning hit. Just my opinion as an amateur physicist.
There is a huge difference between "plastic" and "composite". Calling it plastic is like calling beer water. OK, beer has water in it, but its not the same thing.
Je ne sies Quoi ?
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
the European manufacturer, which will build the wings at Broughton, North Wales, has angered Boeing by asserting that the material is too risky to use composites for a fuselage.
"Airbus will follow The Boeing Co.'s lead and build a plane with a composite fuselage, despite earlier suggesting that such construction wasn't safe because no one had done it before.
At a news conference Monday in Paris, the co-chief executive of EADS said that Airbus plans to develop a new generation of planes to replace its A320 family and that they will be built with light-weight composites."
Not unlike the fairer sex - sometimes ya jus canna figure these things out
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
Didn't Airbus do some similar "big leap forward" steps with their Airbus A-320??? How many new techonologies were there then that were questioned. The video of the A-320 plowing into the trees after the fly-by was spectacular. These days it can be argued that the fly-by-wire Airbuses have been one of the best marketing decisions that Airbus made.
Yeah, I call Airbus' marketing bluff on this. Lots of stones crossing the Atlantic these days.
Yeah, I call Airbus' marketing bluff on this. Lots of stones crossing the Atlantic these days.
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Re: The plastic Boeing 787
Much of the structure of the AV8 Harrier is composite, including the wings. It may be smaller than a 787 but it can pull +9 to -4g and is designed to absorb a certain amount of battle damage.
Oh, and these days its built by Boeing...
Oh, and these days its built by Boeing...