Emergency Sealanding
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Spain
Emergency Sealanding
Hi!!
I've been discussing about this issue for a long time with several experienced pilots. I always ask which is the best attitude of a light plane to face an emergency landing.
Imagine we are in a Cessna 172 towing a banner in a crowed beach and we have an engine fail, the first thing to do is droping the banner in a non crowed area, then best glide speed, and when near to the water, stall speed to face the impact at the minum speed possible.
Then, when have to strike the plane with the water, some people say that the best option is to put the tail first to avoid a roll out and other pilots think it would be better to put first the center of gavity (the wheels) to make the impact softer
Which is the best option? is it the same procedure for tricycles and taildraggers?
Thanks!!
I've been discussing about this issue for a long time with several experienced pilots. I always ask which is the best attitude of a light plane to face an emergency landing.
Imagine we are in a Cessna 172 towing a banner in a crowed beach and we have an engine fail, the first thing to do is droping the banner in a non crowed area, then best glide speed, and when near to the water, stall speed to face the impact at the minum speed possible.
Then, when have to strike the plane with the water, some people say that the best option is to put the tail first to avoid a roll out and other pilots think it would be better to put first the center of gavity (the wheels) to make the impact softer
Which is the best option? is it the same procedure for tricycles and taildraggers?
Thanks!!
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Europe-the sunshine side
personally,I'll try to wet the tail first.And also,I wouldn't loose the banner.It will help,maybe..
But ,in a C172, no big danger I guess,even if you tumble up..just come at low speed,wings level...
But ,in a C172, no big danger I guess,even if you tumble up..just come at low speed,wings level...
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
confab
I really don't think that drag (more of it) is going to be an issue.
Keeping the banner attached is going to increase the rate of descent for one thing, to the extent that you may not have time to complete any checklist, not have the chance to restart the engine (if possible), nor will you be familiar with the handling characteristics or pitch attitudes required.
For me the banner has to go soonest - btw you shouldn't be towing a banner or flying over an area if you cannot land clear, not under UK law in any case.
When you hit the sea you will stop bl**dy quickly - when the wheels and prop hit (esp if windmilling) the deceleration to rest will probably be about 1 second - how much more quickly do you want to stop?
I really don't think that drag (more of it) is going to be an issue.
Keeping the banner attached is going to increase the rate of descent for one thing, to the extent that you may not have time to complete any checklist, not have the chance to restart the engine (if possible), nor will you be familiar with the handling characteristics or pitch attitudes required.
For me the banner has to go soonest - btw you shouldn't be towing a banner or flying over an area if you cannot land clear, not under UK law in any case.
When you hit the sea you will stop bl**dy quickly - when the wheels and prop hit (esp if windmilling) the deceleration to rest will probably be about 1 second - how much more quickly do you want to stop?
Fleet Manager
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: various places .....
Re keeping the banner on ..
Many years ago, a colleague was involved with Navy gunnery target towing in a cabin class twin. During some low level manoeuvring, the target dipped in the sea .... have you heard the expression .. "carrier landing" ? Fortunately, the boys were at a reasonable cruise speed and managed to jettison the line before they stalled .... but, it appears from the tale, the incident did get their attention ..
Suggest you really would not want to face the high level of interest associated with flying a nil engine operating water glide landing when the banner dips in the water with the tug aircraft (depending on the length of the tow line) a considerable number of feet above the water .... the stall (spin ?) may prove fatal regardless of anything else ?
Many years ago, a colleague was involved with Navy gunnery target towing in a cabin class twin. During some low level manoeuvring, the target dipped in the sea .... have you heard the expression .. "carrier landing" ? Fortunately, the boys were at a reasonable cruise speed and managed to jettison the line before they stalled .... but, it appears from the tale, the incident did get their attention ..
Suggest you really would not want to face the high level of interest associated with flying a nil engine operating water glide landing when the banner dips in the water with the tug aircraft (depending on the length of the tow line) a considerable number of feet above the water .... the stall (spin ?) may prove fatal regardless of anything else ?
Joined: May 2003
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From: Cote d'Azur
But ,in a C172, no big danger I guess,even if you tumble up..
I took some lessons in a C172 floatplane a while ago, and on one particularly nice day I asked the instructor if we could just go for a joyride with the wife and a friend in the back. The guy said, mmmm well ok but if we capsize they won't get out alive. Needless to remark we demurred.
But was he right?
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Toronto
Drop the banner
Coming down at minimum touchdown speed the banner wil touch while the a/c is still quite high up -- at which point the drag will decelerate and stall the a/c and whip it into the oggin
Whichever flap setting you decide upon, make sure they won't block the doors which will of course be opened before touchdown.
As for touchdown, once you enter ground effect it's time to ease the nose up as far as it will go without ballooning. Mind you a wave or swell will likely make the first contact and the a/c must still be flown to a complete stop.
Whichever flap setting you decide upon, make sure they won't block the doors which will of course be opened before touchdown.
As for touchdown, once you enter ground effect it's time to ease the nose up as far as it will go without ballooning. Mind you a wave or swell will likely make the first contact and the a/c must still be flown to a complete stop.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Hampshire, UK
I get the impression in the majority of ditchings of Piper and Cessna light singles, the aeroplane will flip over upside down. Therefore having the banner attached may stop that happening, but what having a banner attached does to your glide may have a significant effect. The drag is high, the glide will be very steep, and I wonder how much elevator authority you will have at slow speed with banner attached to pull out? The banner towing I see in Spain is at very low level with minimal time to do anything.
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: vancouver oldebloke
it's been shown in videos that once the cessna wheels contact the water the aircraft immediatey 'FLIPS'noses over..
Remember the 206 amphib wheels down.
This has raised the current issue by TSB regarding poor egress from sinking floatplanes..
The general method is to contact the water level if poss'plonk it in'-you stay upright..Don't forget that if it's rear doored(206)the flaps interfer with th
e doors opening-so open the doors prior to flap extension
cheers
Remember the 206 amphib wheels down.
This has raised the current issue by TSB regarding poor egress from sinking floatplanes..
The general method is to contact the water level if poss'plonk it in'-you stay upright..Don't forget that if it's rear doored(206)the flaps interfer with th
e doors opening-so open the doors prior to flap extension
cheers
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Toronto
Myth 6: High Wing Airplanes Almost Always Flip Over During Ditchings
The accident record simply doesn’t support this impression. In the 179 accidents we reviewed, only one mentioned flipping over on impact. It was a high wing, fixed-gear single (a Cessna 172). But at least 60 other high wing airplanes ditched and none of the pilots reported flipping over.
The accident record simply doesn’t support this impression. In the 179 accidents we reviewed, only one mentioned flipping over on impact. It was a high wing, fixed-gear single (a Cessna 172). But at least 60 other high wing airplanes ditched and none of the pilots reported flipping over.
That's not to say that floatplanes don't flip as they do quite often for a variety of causes. But a properly managed water landing in a floatplane allows you to use the a/c again immediately after
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Co Mayo
I have always believed that the practise of opening the doors before a forced landing means to simply unlatch them but allow the slipstream to pretty much keep them flush with the fusalage. I not convinced it would even be possible to open them wide against a 55-60kt slipstream.
Oldbloke wrote:
"Don't forget that if it's rear doored(206)the flaps interfer with the doors opening-so open the doors prior to flap extension"
In this case I assume he means that the trailing edge of the door needs to be forward of the flaps as they extend... in other words, wide open. Assuming it were possible to push them this far into the slipstream, would this not have a huge destabilising effect on the aerodynamics of an already unhappy aeroplane? A bit like full rudder deflection, only worse.
I have an interest in this topic; I fly from EISG where wearing life jackets at all times is mandatory since regardless of which runway is active, an EFATO will most likely result in a swim.
Whiskey Delta
Oldbloke wrote:
"Don't forget that if it's rear doored(206)the flaps interfer with the doors opening-so open the doors prior to flap extension"
In this case I assume he means that the trailing edge of the door needs to be forward of the flaps as they extend... in other words, wide open. Assuming it were possible to push them this far into the slipstream, would this not have a huge destabilising effect on the aerodynamics of an already unhappy aeroplane? A bit like full rudder deflection, only worse.
I have an interest in this topic; I fly from EISG where wearing life jackets at all times is mandatory since regardless of which runway is active, an EFATO will most likely result in a swim.
Whiskey Delta
Joined: Dec 1998
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
I thought C205/206 has a flap cutout switch on the rear doors ie door open then flap extension inhibited. It's been a number of years since I flew one so I could be mistaken.
If I'm correct then opening the rear door on a C206 will prevent flap extension.
If I'm correct then opening the rear door on a C206 will prevent flap extension.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: near an aeroplane
Just a quick note about banners. Once you get slow with a banner attached, be careful when dropping it as the banner may have a stabilising effect on the plane, ie keeping the tail down and the wings level, which will immediately disappear upon release. A plane (and unfortunately the pilot as well) were written off years ago when they got slow on the pickup and the pilot decided to drop the banner to increase his margins. He (probably, he never got the chance to explain) was already pretty near the stall or in it, and losing the force of the banner pulling the tail down caused the aircraft to immediately enter a spin at low altitude.
This effect has once been demonstrated to some relevant people as far as I know. Airplane in stalled condition but with banner attached -> nose high, wings level descent. Banner release -> immediate nose drop, and violent wing drop to a nearly inverted attitude. Conclusion: if in a stall with banner attached you might be better off leaving the banner attached as it could help you hit right side up, providing you with some protection from the collapsing gear and aircraft structure underneath your rear end.
(Mind: all this is compiled from lengthy discussions with many persons after the accident, not from personal experience.)
I do agree that for a ditching scenario losing the banner would be best because of the reasons mentioned earlier.
This effect has once been demonstrated to some relevant people as far as I know. Airplane in stalled condition but with banner attached -> nose high, wings level descent. Banner release -> immediate nose drop, and violent wing drop to a nearly inverted attitude. Conclusion: if in a stall with banner attached you might be better off leaving the banner attached as it could help you hit right side up, providing you with some protection from the collapsing gear and aircraft structure underneath your rear end.
(Mind: all this is compiled from lengthy discussions with many persons after the accident, not from personal experience.)
I do agree that for a ditching scenario losing the banner would be best because of the reasons mentioned earlier.
