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Japanese and French to go Supersonic (Welcome back Concorde)

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Japanese and French to go Supersonic (Welcome back Concorde)

Old 15th Jun 2005, 08:49
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Thumbs up Japanese and French to go Supersonic (Welcome back Concorde)

CNN) -- Japanese and French companies have signed an agreement to develop a supersonic aircraft to succeed the disused Concorde jetliner, according to Japanese media reports.

The three-year agreement to study a next-generation supersonic jet was signed at the Paris Air Show, Kyodo news agency reported, citing a statement released by Japan's trade ministry.

The Society of Japanese Aerospace Companies and the French Aerospace Industries Association will lead the initiative, it said.

Under the deal, the various parties will conduct research into composite materials, technology for reducing engine noise and other difficulties unique to supersonic flight.

According to the Nihon Keizai newspaper, a number of companies and agencies will work with the two industry bodies.

They include the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, the Engineering Research Association for Supersonic Transport Propulsion System -- consisting of Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, -- the French Aeronautics and Space Research Center, and French aircraft engine manufacturer Snecma.

The Concorde, the world's first supersonic jet, entered service in 1976. It went through a 16-month hiatus after a crash in July 2000, and finally stopped operating in October 2003 due to heavy maintenance costs.

Two airlines, British Airways and Air France, used the aircraft on trans-Atlantic services.

With a cruising speed of 1350 miles an hour it was able to transport passengers from London to New York in less than three hours, compared to an eight-hour flight for subsonic airliners.

But the Concorde suffered a setback when an Air France plane caught fire in July 2000 shortly after takeoff over France. It crashed, killing 113 people, including four on the ground. The aircraft was taken out of service until November 2001.
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 09:35
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It will be called Yo-To-.
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 10:26
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No -

Yo - Toe

(to keep the French happy).
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 10:52
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Concord ?

So, once again, we are screwed by the French and the Japanese will get all the millions of pounds worth of R&D data for sweet FA.
Where did we go wrong ??

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Old 15th Jun 2005, 11:09
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A continued refusal on the part of "governing man" in the UK to look beyond the short term balance sheet.

Same reason we have no involvement with any manned space programme, are decades late with a high speed channel tunnel rail link, the HS125 is now being built in Wichita, the French have all real control over airbus...

G
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 12:51
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According to the June 15 Wall Street Journal,

"Companies from the two countries will invest ¥100 million ($914,000) annually in research over the next three years to build a passenger plane capable of flying faster than the speed of sound, the ministry said in a statement Tuesday."

How can the companies do this by spending so little?
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 13:02
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Because it's basically a design project, very little new research is going to be needed - we already know HOW to build an SST, even most of the information about how to build a reasonably quiet one is in the public domain.

G
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 14:03
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So, once again, we are screwed by the French and the Japanese will get all the millions of pounds worth of R&D data for sweet FA.
Eh, please explain how you are being screwed by the French.

Is it because they don't sit around like a pair of old ladies moaning about how great they once were, and blames their current state on those who just got on with it.

Anyway, the Brits would just cancel the program half way through.
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 14:32
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BBC link to the same story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4094810.stm

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Old 15th Jun 2005, 15:43
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Because it's basically a design project, very little new research is going to be needed - we already know HOW to build an SST, even most of the information about how to build a reasonably quiet one is in the public domain.
That's a bold statement, to say the least.

Was chatting with a SNECMA engineer about this very subject and his view was that current propulsion technology was not capable of producing an engine for an SST that could meet current noise and emissions standard, and that he would not envision any such thing before at least 20 more year...

FWIW
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 15:50
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Is it because they don't sit around like a pair of old ladies moaning about how great they once were, and blames their current state on those who just got on with it.
I thought that was EXACTLY what the French did.....
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 16:17
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Okay, maybe I was a little optimistic on noise and emissions.

Of-course, that's just SNECMA

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 15th Jun 2005 at 16:32.
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 17:20
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Sleeve wing wrote>>Where did we go wrong ??

We let the bloody Treasury run things, that's where!
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Old 15th Jun 2005, 18:46
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The French and Japs might be a winning team with this new craft.

We all know that the Brits were a flop when it came to producing and marketing airliners in the past.
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 07:13
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You wait years for one SST, then two come at once

We all know that the Brits were a flop when it came to producing and marketing airliners in the past.
... I don't know, they sold the HS125 to Raytheon quite effectively


Interesting snippet from this weeks "Professional Engineering". NASA has apparently funded two SST engine studies by Rolls Royce, who reckon that their engineering database on engines for SST is worth about US$2bn, that being their estimate of how much it would cost to repeat all the work and learn the same lessons.

The two studies have been of a high-bypass supersonic engine, and a smaller mixed geometry engine - respectively in co-operation with Gulfstream and Lockheed Martin.

The next stage may apparently be a DARPA funded demonstrator, particularly to allow them to develop ways of minimising environmental effects.

G
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Old 16th Jun 2005, 07:40
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Wouldn’t the next Gen. SST have a „dual use power plant“– conventional for take off, below Fl100 and for landing and for cruse at higher alt. use ram or scramjets? Obviously they would have to be variable geometry but high bypass? I would imagine that the force on the blade, notwithstanding the fact the intake is subsonic, would be big?
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Old 17th Jun 2005, 00:01
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Rolls Royce have got NOTHING to offer to American technology.
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Old 17th Jun 2005, 00:15
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Seems to me when the British create or invent something 9 times out of 10 it's such a flop that the world is snickering for years to come. But the 10th item is so amazing everyone buys it and it becomes lengendary, changing the world in the process. So I'd say they're about even.
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Old 17th Jun 2005, 07:29
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Rolls Royce have got NOTHING to offer to American technology.
That'll be why NASA are spending American tax dollars involving RR in SST design studies then, and for that matter why Boeing is using a RR Trent 1000 in the 7E7 Dreamliner as the lead engine, RR is a 40% partner in developing the F136 engine for F-35...

The US leads the world in most things aerospace, and has every reason to be proud of that. But that sort of petty statement, disregarding that the rest of the world actually is somewhat bigger than the US on it's own, and regularly does it's own thing quite well, is part of the reason that the rest of the world so regularly chooses to treat the USA with contempt.

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Old 20th Jun 2005, 00:17
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2 companies announced supersonic business jets in development last year. one of them, aerion, skirts the noise and heat-buildup issues by m.99 overland and 1.6 over water. seems that my taxes that went into nasa's sonic boom research (was it a big-nosed f-5?) haven't born much fruit as yet. rumors had it that boeing's shelved sonic cruiser was to make the leap when new engine technology permitted in the future. yet another thing we won't get to see anytime soon thanks to lcc's (and yes, by that i mean the forces of supply and demand )

Last edited by jet_fumes_junkie; 20th Jun 2005 at 00:38.
 

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