Air Ambulance reported missing
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HI Fatobs you guys do a great job under difficult circumstances. THANKS
I knew Guy and John well. My condolences to all the families and all at Loganair. Very Sad Day.
Rest in Peace.
I knew Guy and John well. My condolences to all the families and all at Loganair. Very Sad Day.
Rest in Peace.
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Hi
I knew Guy quite well, did some fantastic flying with him when he was Captain on the Saab Fleet. Going to miss him alot..rest in peace mate.
thinking bout you guys and gals at loganair who knew and thought highly of Captain Henderson.
I knew Guy quite well, did some fantastic flying with him when he was Captain on the Saab Fleet. Going to miss him alot..rest in peace mate.
thinking bout you guys and gals at loganair who knew and thought highly of Captain Henderson.
Last edited by bantermanter; 15th Mar 2005 at 19:04.
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Very sad news, whilst not knowing the crew personally i have probably worked them around the wick kirwall area and they fly at times and in conditions that i would not like to drive in let alone fly. my thoughts go out to the families of the loganair ambulance 
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A very sad day indeed for all at Glasgow and especially the people at Loganair.
The ambulance crews do a fantastic job saving lives on a daily basis in all weather conditions, sadly doing this difficult job has resulted in 2 of our colleagues losing their lives.
My thoughts and prayers and no doubt those of my colleagues in the tower at Glasgow are with the families of Capt Henderson and paramedic McCreanor.
May they rest in peace
The ambulance crews do a fantastic job saving lives on a daily basis in all weather conditions, sadly doing this difficult job has resulted in 2 of our colleagues losing their lives.
My thoughts and prayers and no doubt those of my colleagues in the tower at Glasgow are with the families of Capt Henderson and paramedic McCreanor.
May they rest in peace
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My sincerest condolences to Guy's family and that of the Paramedic - John.
I had the pleasure of working with Guy many times on the otherside of the mic, real professional and great humour too.
Great loss to the profession and to all that knew him.
RIP Mate!
I had the pleasure of working with Guy many times on the otherside of the mic, real professional and great humour too.
Great loss to the profession and to all that knew him.
RIP Mate!
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Sincerest condolences to the families of the crew.
Working on a Police Air Support Unit, we have the luxury of turning around when things go bad. So, the bad guys get away ... who cares? When it's our colleagues on the Air Ambo's .... someone gets sicker ... or worse!
I have nothing but admiration for those guys. They are the heroes of Emergency Service aviation, and the best thing to happen in Emergency Healthcare in recent years.
I for one, know that, if I ever had a serious accident i would want it to be in an area covered by one of these units.
I hope the little lad made it too!
I joined the Emergency Services hoping to make a difference. These two guys families should be proud of them, because THEY made a difference.
Rest in Peace guys.
Working on a Police Air Support Unit, we have the luxury of turning around when things go bad. So, the bad guys get away ... who cares? When it's our colleagues on the Air Ambo's .... someone gets sicker ... or worse!
I have nothing but admiration for those guys. They are the heroes of Emergency Service aviation, and the best thing to happen in Emergency Healthcare in recent years.
I for one, know that, if I ever had a serious accident i would want it to be in an area covered by one of these units.
I hope the little lad made it too!
I joined the Emergency Services hoping to make a difference. These two guys families should be proud of them, because THEY made a difference.
Rest in Peace guys.
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There is much that can be done to improve safety on these type of operations, in this day and age having friends die and calling them brave or hero's is not good enough for them or their poor families.
These service do provide a medical life line but for Goverment its just another way of avoiding providing local facilites in rural areas and the excecutive should hang their heads in shame.
Scotland needs proper funding for these types of operations and whilst Islanders and Twotters are excellent for what they were desgined for Scotland sometime dangerous weather requires proper respect and equipment.
In this day and age we can make Zero vis landings at places like MAC at least as safe as the current ops given the GPS technologly available and aircraft with first rate a/p systems else where we can do much the same with the latest choppers
If we can afford to fund traffic police to fly choppers with FLIR &NVG to take pictures that they can flog to BRAVO we should start by funding a dedicated LAND & air sea resucue that can provide this type of cover and not rely on Civi's no matter how dedicated.
Sure it will cost money (a lot) but a fraction of the cost of the new Scottish Parliament and dare i say it provide more benifit for the people of Scotland who have been shafted by their politicians.
I would gladly pay the extra to bring those guys back RIP
I see that Gamma are shortly to take over the provision of air ambulance support for Scotland using a pair of King Airs and Choppers.................ironic
please note i am in no way pe judging the out come of the AAIB investigation nor questioning LoganAirs equipment,proccedures or indeed the pilot, just frustrated at another sad loss to our industry.
Cheers
Burt
These service do provide a medical life line but for Goverment its just another way of avoiding providing local facilites in rural areas and the excecutive should hang their heads in shame.
Scotland needs proper funding for these types of operations and whilst Islanders and Twotters are excellent for what they were desgined for Scotland sometime dangerous weather requires proper respect and equipment.
In this day and age we can make Zero vis landings at places like MAC at least as safe as the current ops given the GPS technologly available and aircraft with first rate a/p systems else where we can do much the same with the latest choppers
If we can afford to fund traffic police to fly choppers with FLIR &NVG to take pictures that they can flog to BRAVO we should start by funding a dedicated LAND & air sea resucue that can provide this type of cover and not rely on Civi's no matter how dedicated.
Sure it will cost money (a lot) but a fraction of the cost of the new Scottish Parliament and dare i say it provide more benifit for the people of Scotland who have been shafted by their politicians.
I would gladly pay the extra to bring those guys back RIP
I see that Gamma are shortly to take over the provision of air ambulance support for Scotland using a pair of King Airs and Choppers.................ironic
please note i am in no way pe judging the out come of the AAIB investigation nor questioning LoganAirs equipment,proccedures or indeed the pilot, just frustrated at another sad loss to our industry.
Cheers
Burt
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Before installing FLIR etc, why not "install" a second pilot?
Having two qualified pilots on board in poor weather goes a long way to enhancing flight sfaety, in my opinion.
Never mind the legalities of single pilot ops, what about the practicalities?
Please note that I am not pre-judging the inquiry or speculating as to the cause of the accident, nor am I laying any blame upon any crew member.However, statistical evidence confirms that single pilot operation in this class of aeroplane DOES carry a greater degree of risk.
It's no coincidence that a certain well know cargo oufit operates the single pilot approved Caravan with two crew.
Having two qualified pilots on board in poor weather goes a long way to enhancing flight sfaety, in my opinion.
Never mind the legalities of single pilot ops, what about the practicalities?
Please note that I am not pre-judging the inquiry or speculating as to the cause of the accident, nor am I laying any blame upon any crew member.However, statistical evidence confirms that single pilot operation in this class of aeroplane DOES carry a greater degree of risk.
It's no coincidence that a certain well know cargo oufit operates the single pilot approved Caravan with two crew.
Moving map GPS with a terrain database would be one of the most effective improvements that could be made. What a pity that GPS is persona non grata in the UK.
We often used a handheld Garmin GPSIII a previous pilot obtained in spite of the Director of Flight Ops expressing disapproval when he found out.
Legal or otherwise, the data available was orders of magnitude more accurate & timely than no navaids or a low powered NDB 30nm away or a VOR obscured by a range of hills - while trying to find an island at night with no navaids & only flare pots to mark the strip.
We often used a handheld Garmin GPSIII a previous pilot obtained in spite of the Director of Flight Ops expressing disapproval when he found out.
Legal or otherwise, the data available was orders of magnitude more accurate & timely than no navaids or a low powered NDB 30nm away or a VOR obscured by a range of hills - while trying to find an island at night with no navaids & only flare pots to mark the strip.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 19th Mar 2005 at 19:30.
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Two Crew Ops
A while back, when I did this Air Amb thing, I felt two sets of eyes were vital in marginal conditions, especially at night. More than once I used the nurse (as it was then) to help.
One time, needing to go into Islay on a particularly horrible night, I even took my wife (a trained nurse as well as experienced in light aviation). The brief was that I would fly heads down for best precision and my wife would look out and tell me when she could clearly see two parallel rows of runway lights. Then I would look up and land if I was visual. Mission was accomplished safely even if not quite iaw SOPs. Islay was also a location for the loss of a Heron Air Amb aircraft with no survivors.
On a nice day single crew is fine. At night and especially in marginal weather, it has to be two crew. I still think that night ops into Barra are amongst the most hazardous things I have ever done.
I hope these guys are the last to be lost on Scottish Air Ambulance operations but I fear they will not be.
One time, needing to go into Islay on a particularly horrible night, I even took my wife (a trained nurse as well as experienced in light aviation). The brief was that I would fly heads down for best precision and my wife would look out and tell me when she could clearly see two parallel rows of runway lights. Then I would look up and land if I was visual. Mission was accomplished safely even if not quite iaw SOPs. Islay was also a location for the loss of a Heron Air Amb aircraft with no survivors.
On a nice day single crew is fine. At night and especially in marginal weather, it has to be two crew. I still think that night ops into Barra are amongst the most hazardous things I have ever done.
I hope these guys are the last to be lost on Scottish Air Ambulance operations but I fear they will not be.
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When I discussed the absence of (ops manual specified) night training in Shetland I was told that we didn't do them often and just to keep my fingers crossed that I wasn't called out at night. Later the same manager said "breaking the law is the only way we can get the job done" I and my colleagues disagread. After that I talked the NHS in Shetland to fund the Garmin. Management disaproved strongly, but I noticed that 'management' flew with GPS. I never did get any night training. I believe Tinstaafi got the first and his 'trainer/manager' also had his first experience of night outer isles ops on the same flight.
To get an idea of whats involved in ambulance night ops read 'Islanders Islander' on the Fair isle airstrip website.
To get an idea of whats involved in ambulance night ops read 'Islanders Islander' on the Fair isle airstrip website.
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Hi there,
It's all well and good talking about upgrading services, GPS and the like, and how hard it can be flying to NDBs or no aids at all, in the dark, in Scotland etc, etc. The fact is that MAC is a well established 'discreet' Loganair VOR/DME procedure that heads out over the sea with with a normal inbound turn and descent to a standard MDA of 430 feet or so into an immediate VOR assisted go-around if nothing is seen at MDA. No level off and de-stabilisation etc. The aeroplane was crewed with a very experienced and highly capable pilot, a great paramedic (I flew with them both on many occasions when I worked for Loganair) and a sturdy three axis autopilot....hence the dispensation to fly single crew ops.
We are not, in this particular case talking about inaccurate night NDB approaches on islands like Islay, or scrabbling around in the dark low-level looking for lights. In the last few years great efforts have been made to bring the BN2 SOPs and training to a very high standard, mirroring the other fleets high quality training at Loganair, and the crew were both professionals. The whole issue of using paramedics to assist as an extra set of eyes when the weather is bad is not dangerous. That's called CRM. And the modern training is working harder to develop that relationship. You think the helicopter paramedics aren't looking out of the window and talking to the crew when they're trying to let down in the crap weather?
There seems to be this yesteryear opinion that the job, single pilot, is 'dangerous', but within the bounds of the training and the SOPs, even the night work to Barra is fairly straight forward. Something obviously went tragically wrong, and lets hope the AAIB can shed some light on that, for everyone's sake, so that if nothing else, the guys who still have to go out day and night and do this job can learn from it.
The guys will be missed very much and my sympathies go out to their families and everyone at Loganair.
ACA
Edited for Nil further: Yes it is, into light icing conditions. Loganair aircraft fitted with full wing, stab and fin boots, hot prop mats and a hot windscreen panel.
It's all well and good talking about upgrading services, GPS and the like, and how hard it can be flying to NDBs or no aids at all, in the dark, in Scotland etc, etc. The fact is that MAC is a well established 'discreet' Loganair VOR/DME procedure that heads out over the sea with with a normal inbound turn and descent to a standard MDA of 430 feet or so into an immediate VOR assisted go-around if nothing is seen at MDA. No level off and de-stabilisation etc. The aeroplane was crewed with a very experienced and highly capable pilot, a great paramedic (I flew with them both on many occasions when I worked for Loganair) and a sturdy three axis autopilot....hence the dispensation to fly single crew ops.
We are not, in this particular case talking about inaccurate night NDB approaches on islands like Islay, or scrabbling around in the dark low-level looking for lights. In the last few years great efforts have been made to bring the BN2 SOPs and training to a very high standard, mirroring the other fleets high quality training at Loganair, and the crew were both professionals. The whole issue of using paramedics to assist as an extra set of eyes when the weather is bad is not dangerous. That's called CRM. And the modern training is working harder to develop that relationship. You think the helicopter paramedics aren't looking out of the window and talking to the crew when they're trying to let down in the crap weather?
There seems to be this yesteryear opinion that the job, single pilot, is 'dangerous', but within the bounds of the training and the SOPs, even the night work to Barra is fairly straight forward. Something obviously went tragically wrong, and lets hope the AAIB can shed some light on that, for everyone's sake, so that if nothing else, the guys who still have to go out day and night and do this job can learn from it.
The guys will be missed very much and my sympathies go out to their families and everyone at Loganair.
ACA
Edited for Nil further: Yes it is, into light icing conditions. Loganair aircraft fitted with full wing, stab and fin boots, hot prop mats and a hot windscreen panel.
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There seems to be this yesteryear opinion that the job, single pilot, is 'dangerous', but within the bounds of the training and the SOPs, even the night work to Barra is fairly straight forward.
If that were not the case, why do we need two crew on a B737/A320 which has an even better APFD and nav suite than the Islander?
Two pairs of eyes and two pairs of hands are safer than one. Always have been and probably always will be.
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I used to fly air ambulance for Loganair back in the early seventies, on the BN2.
Have done the let down out to sea at Islay and others many a time, I think something else must have gone wrong here.
Have done the let down out to sea at Islay and others many a time, I think something else must have gone wrong here.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 22nd Mar 2005 at 23:52.
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Only met Gus once on the apron up North. And my condolances to family friends and all that knew the gent.
As a matter of interest to alot of people on the Western and the Northen Isles is what is going to happen when the contract changes.
There are quite alot of backroom storys about the Islander pulling off the nearly impossible mainly due to the quality crew and the shall we say unique abilitys of the islander. There is always something great about watching an islander hover landing across a runway when nothing else can get in.
And the the storys of islanders getting into ice and the manner they escaped put the fear of god up me just thinking about the situation.
Can the helicopters really improve the service that Logan Air and the islanders are doing just now?. And its going to one hella of a steep learning curve for the crews operating in the highland when they come on line.
MJ
As a matter of interest to alot of people on the Western and the Northen Isles is what is going to happen when the contract changes.
There are quite alot of backroom storys about the Islander pulling off the nearly impossible mainly due to the quality crew and the shall we say unique abilitys of the islander. There is always something great about watching an islander hover landing across a runway when nothing else can get in.
And the the storys of islanders getting into ice and the manner they escaped put the fear of god up me just thinking about the situation.
Can the helicopters really improve the service that Logan Air and the islanders are doing just now?. And its going to one hella of a steep learning curve for the crews operating in the highland when they come on line.
MJ
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Ambulance Charlie Alpha. You hit it on the head when you refered to the SOPs.
You mention an MDA of 430', and a robust autopilot. Ive been out of the game but I thought it was MDH? Does the ops manual still say the auto pilot cannot be used below 1,000'?
A second pilot would help decision making/situational awareness just as it does on larger types. Liverpool/Tingwall and other single pilot crashs would probably not have happend if there had been two pilots.
Gus was tremendously helpful after my chemical injury (and incapacitation in flight). I will miss his counsel and friendship. RIP.
Andy S.
You mention an MDA of 430', and a robust autopilot. Ive been out of the game but I thought it was MDH? Does the ops manual still say the auto pilot cannot be used below 1,000'?
A second pilot would help decision making/situational awareness just as it does on larger types. Liverpool/Tingwall and other single pilot crashs would probably not have happend if there had been two pilots.
Gus was tremendously helpful after my chemical injury (and incapacitation in flight). I will miss his counsel and friendship. RIP.
Andy S.
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I've always been hugely respectful of the Loganair air amb pilots and even moreso now after some of what's been said on this thread. What I can't understand is how the CAA have dealt with all this - night ops into 500m rough grass strips on tiny islands in the Atlantic with no prior training etc. Presumably, if they're ambulance flights, they're public transport even though the patient isn't exactly paying? So if they're flying into unlicensed strips in an aircraft >2730kgs, especially at night, they must have some sort of standing exemption from various provisions of the ANO, not to mention JAR-OPS 1? I would have thought regulatory oversight would be even more stringent where people are operating on exemptions.
NS
NS