To Follow or Not To Follow The F/D
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Also what is quite helpful is using the ILS display instead of the Map display during the approach on the ND as it will show you very clearly the track line and the ILS course.
If the deviation bar is centered, all you have to do is keep the track line super imposed over the ILS course bar.
This will allow you you to look 'trough' the FD because you now have the raw data on which the FD makes its command in front of you.
On a NG's with GPS, the track line is generally spot on unlike some -300/400, which use IRS and can have obsolete magnetic variation information.
If the deviation bar is centered, all you have to do is keep the track line super imposed over the ILS course bar.
This will allow you you to look 'trough' the FD because you now have the raw data on which the FD makes its command in front of you.
On a NG's with GPS, the track line is generally spot on unlike some -300/400, which use IRS and can have obsolete magnetic variation information.
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Rainboe, your on. Next time i'm in there i'm gonna kick some M
F Ass 
I don't plan to fail, and I refuse to fail. Because this is what I do, and what I will be doing for a long time. Flying is what i love, and I refuse to give up because of a few hurdles along the way
Swept wing, have to agree with you, the ILS display is the more useful display, and what I like to use.
Charles D, the FPV dot was briefly described to us in our conversion from the classic and has never been properly shown to us, all my group were told about that, is that it is widely used by Airbus pilots
Anybody know the rates of an NG sim in the UK, and are there any others than those at GECAT and Alteon?
Thanks everybody,
S.C.
F Ass I don't plan to fail, and I refuse to fail. Because this is what I do, and what I will be doing for a long time. Flying is what i love, and I refuse to give up because of a few hurdles along the way
Swept wing, have to agree with you, the ILS display is the more useful display, and what I like to use.
Charles D, the FPV dot was briefly described to us in our conversion from the classic and has never been properly shown to us, all my group were told about that, is that it is widely used by Airbus pilots
Anybody know the rates of an NG sim in the UK, and are there any others than those at GECAT and Alteon?
Thanks everybody,
S.C.
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Not sure I agree about the ILS being displayed on the Nav screen. Because of your lack of practice, you want to KISS (Keep It Simple Sucker!). You have a GS and a Localiser displayed on your Primary Flight Display. Why try and scan over to another instrument? I would suggest leaving your Nav display on Nav and giving all your attention (apart from a scan over to EPR and a frequent quick look that the control wheel) to the PFD- it has all you need- ILS, Speed, Attitude, Flt Director, Altitude, Heading. Live in this instrument, print out a picture of it and put it by your bed- know it better than you know your girlfriend's face. Keep everything basic and as simple as possible or you will get swamped that much more easily- hence don't bother with FPV, not that the sim has one I think. I know you can put some very good information on the Nav display as Swept Wing advised, but I think your problem is possibly that you are getting swamped and overloaded with information already hence you are not seeing the aeroplane going out of trim, so I feel you would be better keeping it as simple as your previous types without such bells and whistles. A bit more practice and you would be ready to use them though- it would make all the difference.
Some other opinions on that would be interesting!
Some other opinions on that would be interesting!
S.C., follow rainboe's advice as it's good gen. Been a long time since I flew a 737-300 so no NG experience, but I tend to fly all eng inop approaches with the rudder trim neutral - that way I know where the sucker is. If you keep the slip balanced the FD will give you great info.
Reference thrust settings, as a [rough] general rule thrust = fuel flow, so use the same total fuel flow to get a ballpark thrust setting. Not sure if that is easy to see on the NG
Best of luck!
Reference thrust settings, as a [rough] general rule thrust = fuel flow, so use the same total fuel flow to get a ballpark thrust setting. Not sure if that is easy to see on the NG
Best of luck!
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Spleener- I used to ask at outer marker for rudder trim to be wound to zero whilst I froze my feet on the pedals to take the strain. The 737 training section persuaded me out of that, and I found it was actually better to leave a low trim setting in during the approach and then don't touch it. Rudder pedal forces can be very high, so no point in making too much work for yourself. After that you just watch the slip indicator (very poor) and the control wheel. As long as you centre the control wheel with rudder gently, the Flight Director will give you good indications. I can't remember the power settings very well.
Don't forget, when you land and come back to idle, you no longer have asymmetric thrust, so there will be unbalanced rudder trim suddenly yawing you into the live engine. Just a nasty little surprise when you think it's all over!
Don't forget, when you land and come back to idle, you no longer have asymmetric thrust, so there will be unbalanced rudder trim suddenly yawing you into the live engine. Just a nasty little surprise when you think it's all over!
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Guys, thanks for all the advice on single engine approaches for the NG. The company has just contacted me and i'm to re-do what i failed on next week, but this time not in the NG but in a 400 Sim? With plenty more experience in this, I hope it to be uneventful and enjoyable.
Rainboe, I promise, my attitude and approach to this wil be determined and confident. With everyones advice here and a little practice before hand, I should be out on the line soon.
Take care,
S.C.
Rainboe, I promise, my attitude and approach to this wil be determined and confident. With everyones advice here and a little practice before hand, I should be out on the line soon.
Take care,
S.C.
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The FD is there as an aid. It is not the be-all and end-all of flying an aeroplane despite what some check pilots/simulator instructors think.
If the FD bewilders you on an ILS or go-around (two or one engine) then ask your instructor if you can fly the go-around complete raw data. Now you can see the body angles that are required crystal clearly.
Once you feel competent at full raw data, then when you use the FD you will be aware of its idiosyncrasy's - and as someone said previously, you can "look behind the FD" and smooth things out. 100% FD use can subtly erode your normal instrument scans.
If the FD bewilders you on an ILS or go-around (two or one engine) then ask your instructor if you can fly the go-around complete raw data. Now you can see the body angles that are required crystal clearly.
Once you feel competent at full raw data, then when you use the FD you will be aware of its idiosyncrasy's - and as someone said previously, you can "look behind the FD" and smooth things out. 100% FD use can subtly erode your normal instrument scans.
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I had the same troubles, though on another aircraft type. Everything went well in sim, except for some of the last sim sessions, my OEI approaches were like I was flying an ILS for the first time.
Localizer and flight director went like windshield wipers!
For my part, I found what caused my trouble:
1. I wasn't enough after the speed. Being in close to the speed-unstable region, thrust must be managed properly. I didn't (in time), so with an engine out, large thurst changes became necessary.
2. The changing thrust affected the slip/skid, so rudder needed more attention, whilst trying to get the speed back to where it should be.
3. The out of trim condition caused the heading to wander, as well as flying in a crab meant the aircraft went in another direction than heading was pointing - causing flight director readings to be unusable, until becoming in trim again. For me it was the first time with a crosspointer FD - before I was used to the "fly-into" type, so I had flight director needles and LLZ/GS crossing one another ... and instructor would NOT let me fly raw data.
4. By this time, localizer would be all over the place, and soon all the parameters of speed, thrust, localizer, glide slope, heading and maybe more would be out of control, resulting in a slalom ILS.
The solution was simple - it starts at 1. above:
Keep a good eye on the thrust and speed. If you have a speed trend vector, a fast/slow indicator or a three digit mach indicator (I guess not on a 737 NG!), then use them for speed trend. The mach indicators third digit serves as a trend because it is so sensitive, not reading the actual mach but checking whether the speed is going up or down - though I am sure you don't have this one on the NG.
Knowing the approximate power settings for the approach is a great help especially if you are inexperienced - at least it saves you from the large thrust changes.
Have fun at the check ride - smile at the instruments and they will smile back to you
Localizer and flight director went like windshield wipers!
For my part, I found what caused my trouble:
1. I wasn't enough after the speed. Being in close to the speed-unstable region, thrust must be managed properly. I didn't (in time), so with an engine out, large thurst changes became necessary.
2. The changing thrust affected the slip/skid, so rudder needed more attention, whilst trying to get the speed back to where it should be.
3. The out of trim condition caused the heading to wander, as well as flying in a crab meant the aircraft went in another direction than heading was pointing - causing flight director readings to be unusable, until becoming in trim again. For me it was the first time with a crosspointer FD - before I was used to the "fly-into" type, so I had flight director needles and LLZ/GS crossing one another ... and instructor would NOT let me fly raw data.
4. By this time, localizer would be all over the place, and soon all the parameters of speed, thrust, localizer, glide slope, heading and maybe more would be out of control, resulting in a slalom ILS.
The solution was simple - it starts at 1. above:
Keep a good eye on the thrust and speed. If you have a speed trend vector, a fast/slow indicator or a three digit mach indicator (I guess not on a 737 NG!), then use them for speed trend. The mach indicators third digit serves as a trend because it is so sensitive, not reading the actual mach but checking whether the speed is going up or down - though I am sure you don't have this one on the NG.
Knowing the approximate power settings for the approach is a great help especially if you are inexperienced - at least it saves you from the large thrust changes.
Have fun at the check ride - smile at the instruments and they will smile back to you
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Rainboe,
You seem confused about which sim this chap is 'flying'.
Rainboe wrote:
Yet S_C wrote:
So, this chap was being tested in a NG sim, not the braincrank -400 sim, although most of his training had been in the -400 sim. Why would this NG sim not have FPV?
Rainboe wrote:
EPR? In an NG?
Not true, ground idle on one engine with the other shut down is still assymmetric thrust.
S_C, you keep on talking about your OPC. Are you sure this wasn't an LST?
OPC - Operator Prof Check
LST - Licence Skill Test (test for initial TR issue)
You seem confused about which sim this chap is 'flying'.
Rainboe wrote:
hence don't bother with FPV, not that the sim has one I think.
Most of my training has been done on the Cranebank 737-400, and this was my second time in the NG sim.
Rainboe wrote:
apart from a scan over to EPR and a frequent quick look that the control wheel
Don't forget, when you land and come back to idle, you no longer have asymmetric thrust
S_C, you keep on talking about your OPC. Are you sure this wasn't an LST?
OPC - Operator Prof Check
LST - Licence Skill Test (test for initial TR issue)
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Well he said most of his training was done in a 400 sim which I have used extensively. My suggestion was it didn't have a FPV which shouldn't be used anyway if he flies one with it- it is more of an unnecessary complication than a benefit to an inexperienced pilot. We have FPV on the 747- we do not use them or are trained in their use. Personally, I like it, but it's for advanced flying only. I suggested on page 2
EPR. N1. What's the difference? It's still only a power setting, and EPR is what he'd have been using at Cranebank.
When you come back to idle for landing and rollout in a 737, asymmetric thrust is just about negligible. If you imagine any difference, it's more than I ever saw! If you land with approach type rudder trim on, that will give you a surprise when you come back to idle and land, forgetting the trim is there. I was just warning him of a little effect that has sprung up on me. I wasn't trying to go into the academical theory of flying, just a few of the most important pointers for someone in his position flying a simulator I know well.
I would think at this stage it is more of a complication than worth having.
When you come back to idle for landing and rollout in a 737, asymmetric thrust is just about negligible. If you imagine any difference, it's more than I ever saw! If you land with approach type rudder trim on, that will give you a surprise when you come back to idle and land, forgetting the trim is there. I was just warning him of a little effect that has sprung up on me. I wasn't trying to go into the academical theory of flying, just a few of the most important pointers for someone in his position flying a simulator I know well.
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Did it really?- I'm cracking up! It was 8 years ago yer 'onor!
I have been flying an EPR aeroplane since then. Who cares- it says the same thing? Can I plead previous history in mitigation? Mind you, the 200 was fun- like a Cherokee with jets.
I have been flying an EPR aeroplane since then. Who cares- it says the same thing? Can I plead previous history in mitigation? Mind you, the 200 was fun- like a Cherokee with jets.
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white track line
saw the title of the thread and i apologize ahead of time if someone has said this before in earlier reply. (don't have the time to read them all!)
but learn to use the expanded VOR/ILS picture-(in 3/4/5's and NG's) and move that white track line to where it needs to be.
later sim tests will take away the flight directors at times and you must know how to fly the white track line.
every 737 i have flown needs about 56 +/- with two engines and 70 +/- with one engine once on the glide slope. single engine level flight is about 80 something as well. depends on weight.
numbers available else where on 737 sites and they don't change that much over the different models
and like the other replier said, think of your arm directly connected to your rudder leg when single engine and keep them still once set.
airspeed is our friend!!!!
on the EFIS/NG fly the white bug Vref+15 or a bit more (never slower) when single engine and approaching the glide. you can't fail for having a few extra knots of airspeed and it keeps both ailerons and rudders effective.
get slow and live gets much more difficult. i never aim for the Vref+5 trap!
and don't forget the option of going around early and setting up again.
and sad to say, it does (at times) depend on who the checker was!!
but learn to use the expanded VOR/ILS picture-(in 3/4/5's and NG's) and move that white track line to where it needs to be.
later sim tests will take away the flight directors at times and you must know how to fly the white track line.
every 737 i have flown needs about 56 +/- with two engines and 70 +/- with one engine once on the glide slope. single engine level flight is about 80 something as well. depends on weight.
numbers available else where on 737 sites and they don't change that much over the different models
and like the other replier said, think of your arm directly connected to your rudder leg when single engine and keep them still once set.
airspeed is our friend!!!!
on the EFIS/NG fly the white bug Vref+15 or a bit more (never slower) when single engine and approaching the glide. you can't fail for having a few extra knots of airspeed and it keeps both ailerons and rudders effective.
get slow and live gets much more difficult. i never aim for the Vref+5 trap!
and don't forget the option of going around early and setting up again.
and sad to say, it does (at times) depend on who the checker was!!
