LHR "Green light" taxi system
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The "Reds and Greens" were the brainchild of one Arthur Ruffell, who served as a controller and went on to become SATCO in the 1950s.
I recall visiting the US in th 60s and hearing controllers rave over Heathrow's reds and greens... and they were very good, except when they went wrong. (Probably all sorted nowadays!)
I recall visiting the US in th 60s and hearing controllers rave over Heathrow's reds and greens... and they were very good, except when they went wrong. (Probably all sorted nowadays!)
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 15th Feb 2005 at 10:48.
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BMIxxx
It does NOT replace the GND instructions. The lighting panel operator works in conjunction with GND to assist the aircraft to follow the designated route. The primary source of control is by GND. It might be that the 'greens' come up before you speak to GND, which MAY give you a clue as to what the instructions will be, but they are just that - a clue.
The same system is also used at LGW and SIN as far as I recall.
.... the one that replaces ATC GND instructions?
The same system is also used at LGW and SIN as far as I recall.
The whole system is a pain in a*** except for the 1-2 days a year when really low vis. strikes. It just slows the flow of traffic around the airport and leads to lots of extra RT when the guy operating the panel can't keep up with the ground controller. All of the signs are illuminated so why the big difference between night and day operations? or is this yet another case of the supposed "unique" nature of Heathrow?.
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The lighting operator is working under the privileges of the Ground controller's licence. Usually both have the same plan. Any unusual ones are discussed over the intercom beforehand (usually) or by specifying the ATCO's chosen route on the RT. eg: "...follow the greens, via....."
It's a pain for us ATCOS too, especially as sometimes our plan and the lighting operator's may differ or misunderstood. We often get pilots complaining about stop bars not going down in time. It's normally because your route cannot be selected until the aircraft ahead of you has vacated your "block" (remember those?). Often a few seconds of patience or not taxing up the backside of the guy in frony will help.... but of couse, being human, sometimes we forget.
But remember, it's there for everybody's safety. The view from the tower at night is not great and the ground radar cannot always be relied upon. The lights effectively give you a route protected from other aircraft, especially when vacating runways.
PS: why are pilots afraid of going through taxiways with blue edgelights when the green centreline lights have been switched off due to work in progress?
It's a pain for us ATCOS too, especially as sometimes our plan and the lighting operator's may differ or misunderstood. We often get pilots complaining about stop bars not going down in time. It's normally because your route cannot be selected until the aircraft ahead of you has vacated your "block" (remember those?). Often a few seconds of patience or not taxing up the backside of the guy in frony will help.... but of couse, being human, sometimes we forget.
But remember, it's there for everybody's safety. The view from the tower at night is not great and the ground radar cannot always be relied upon. The lights effectively give you a route protected from other aircraft, especially when vacating runways.
PS: why are pilots afraid of going through taxiways with blue edgelights when the green centreline lights have been switched off due to work in progress?
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It doesn´t depend on Lucas electrical system, does it?
No really, it ´s fantastic and works perfectly. Must be Bosch.
No really, it ´s fantastic and works perfectly. Must be Bosch.
Last edited by Charles Darwin; 16th Feb 2005 at 12:57.
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Max Angle... You amaze me!! I worked with that system for well over 20 years and think it's God's Gift. Every airline pilot and controller I've spoken to also thinks it's fantastic. The American crews used to rave about it. Maybe they ought to switch them off one day and let you guys get on with it... Biggest cock-ups I've ever seen in my life were pretty jolly spiffing airline pilots trying to get off the runway in poor vis when one of the green turn offs wasn't working. I actually said to one once: "Are you sure you'll be safe om the M4?"
Happy landings..
Happy landings..
Yellow and green turn off lights are available at all ( I think) airports that host low vis. ops and maybe lots that don't and very usefull they are too, assuming the assistant working the panel doesn't try to get smart and turn a set off that you aiming for coz. HE thinks you aren't going to make it, it's happened to me a few times now.
The switched taxi light system at LHR is another matter and in my opinion is more trouble than it's worth and slows things up. You seem to be stopping and starting all the time at night waiting for a route to light up because the stop bar can't be dropped till the other aircraft is past it's next block. Like I said, great in 75m vis. but just not needed at other times as all other airports prove on a nightly basis. Is it going to be installed in the new tower?.
The switched taxi light system at LHR is another matter and in my opinion is more trouble than it's worth and slows things up. You seem to be stopping and starting all the time at night waiting for a route to light up because the stop bar can't be dropped till the other aircraft is past it's next block. Like I said, great in 75m vis. but just not needed at other times as all other airports prove on a nightly basis. Is it going to be installed in the new tower?.
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To get the thread back on topic....
Scott asked,
This system is currently known as
Surface Movement Ground Control System or SMGCS
The equipment is supplied and updated by Alstom, not Lucas or Bosch!
We used to call it BARCIS or British Airports Route Control Indicating System but we're not allowed to be British Airports Authority any more, only BAAplc.
Of course, everyone still calls it the BARCIS (or a pain in the *ss, depending upon whether or not it's working.) I think that Max Angle is in a tiny minority. Most people seem to find it useful and it does give positive separation from other traffic, which actually improves the capacity of the airfield, even though it may appear to slow an individual a/c. Just take it steady and anticipate what's happening ahead of you. It's a bit like charging phased traffic lights. If you stick to the speed limit, you'll find they'll change nicely just as you get to them!
The panel operators here at LGW take great pride in working together with the ATCO for a smooth, expeditious flow of traffic and I'm sure it's the same at LHR (it used to be, anyway).
Cheers,
TheOddOne
Scott asked,
What is the system called in place at London Heathrow for gound movements on the taxiways (greenlights), the one that replaces ATC GND instructions?
Surface Movement Ground Control System or SMGCS
The equipment is supplied and updated by Alstom, not Lucas or Bosch!
We used to call it BARCIS or British Airports Route Control Indicating System but we're not allowed to be British Airports Authority any more, only BAAplc.
Of course, everyone still calls it the BARCIS (or a pain in the *ss, depending upon whether or not it's working.) I think that Max Angle is in a tiny minority. Most people seem to find it useful and it does give positive separation from other traffic, which actually improves the capacity of the airfield, even though it may appear to slow an individual a/c. Just take it steady and anticipate what's happening ahead of you. It's a bit like charging phased traffic lights. If you stick to the speed limit, you'll find they'll change nicely just as you get to them!
The panel operators here at LGW take great pride in working together with the ATCO for a smooth, expeditious flow of traffic and I'm sure it's the same at LHR (it used to be, anyway).
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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Yes, TOO, based on experience at LGW, LHR and STN they get a 
from me - great help. Just occasionally a touch of frustration when the 'fastest finger first' isn't
from me - great help. Just occasionally a touch of frustration when the 'fastest finger first' isn't
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HD
Well HD, I too think it is a great system ..... but ...... 99.9% of the airports around the world work perfectly ok without it. I agree with Max Angle, it is useful in conditions of low vis, but TOTALLY unnecessary at all other times. You speak as an (ex) controller, not as a pilot. I speak as a pilot. At night, the time when the system is normally used, 99.9% of the time the vis is perfectly good enough to see all other aircraft, WE (the pilots) do not need the system, so why do YOU (controllers/BAA) require it. Please explain what the safety benefits are. Even in low vis ops, other airports do not have it, why does LHR, (LGW, STN, etc)?
You amaze me!! I worked with that system for well over 20 years and think it's God's Gift. Every airline pilot and controller I've spoken to also thinks it's fantastic.
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Perhaps a little unkind, TB? What about the pilot who lands at LGW at night for the first time, is given a rapid-fire set of taxyway instructions which he/she is rapidly trying to fathom, when a voice says "follow the greens" and Bob's your uncle!
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Some airports with a selective routeing lighting system available often use "all greens" in normal vis (except at runway entry points) which makes life as lot easier for ATC. In low vis selective routeing is a CAA requirement at Cat III equipped airports. The "all green" mode of operation is fine as long as good lit information signage is available for unfamiliar pilots. LHR I understand is presently having it's lighting system changed to Alstom which should make it easier to use.
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<<WE (the pilots) do not need the system, so why do YOU (controllers/BAA) require it. Please explain what the safety benefits are.>>
I do not believe that Topbunk speaks for all pilots - all those I've met have been 100% in favour of the system for the reason that BOAC mentions. Maybe if TB knew how many pilots get lost in broad daylight he'd change his views.
Speaking as a controller who used the system for over 20 years I do not think - in fact I KNOW - I could not have coped without it. Ground control is a very difficult task at a major airport, more so in the dark or bad vis. A system which functions like traffic lights to prevent incidents has to be a major safety feature.
Lastly, my first boss - an ex-wartime "ace" - sacked me with the words "Pilots do not need ATC"......
I do not believe that Topbunk speaks for all pilots - all those I've met have been 100% in favour of the system for the reason that BOAC mentions. Maybe if TB knew how many pilots get lost in broad daylight he'd change his views.
Speaking as a controller who used the system for over 20 years I do not think - in fact I KNOW - I could not have coped without it. Ground control is a very difficult task at a major airport, more so in the dark or bad vis. A system which functions like traffic lights to prevent incidents has to be a major safety feature.
Lastly, my first boss - an ex-wartime "ace" - sacked me with the words "Pilots do not need ATC"......
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BOAC
I disagree - LGW is a pretty simple airfield, and LHR has been greatly simplified with the new taxiway designators and getting rid of the block numbering system. In that, they are now pretty much like any other major international airport.
'Turn left on A hold short of J stand 123' - not exactly complex. Why does the UK think it is different to everywhere else? Yes the system is good but it is unnecessary,imho.
I disagree - LGW is a pretty simple airfield, and LHR has been greatly simplified with the new taxiway designators and getting rid of the block numbering system. In that, they are now pretty much like any other major international airport.
'Turn left on A hold short of J stand 123' - not exactly complex. Why does the UK think it is different to everywhere else? Yes the system is good but it is unnecessary,imho.
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TopBunk
I can't agree with your statement that EGLL has been simplified by the removal of the block system. Although refering to "taxiway alpha" rather than "the outer" is more ICAO compliant, if any complicated routes are required the new system becomes more ponderous than the old, in my opinion.
G W-H
I can't agree with your statement that EGLL has been simplified by the removal of the block system. Although refering to "taxiway alpha" rather than "the outer" is more ICAO compliant, if any complicated routes are required the new system becomes more ponderous than the old, in my opinion.
G W-H
