Autoland without autothrottle on 737
LEM Re - Who do you think you are talking to?
Perhaps someone who could benefit from additional Airmanship – discipline, skill, proficiency, knowledge, situation awareness, judgement. You choose, I can only guess from what has been written.
P.S. Is a 6 kt tail wind within limits for an auto approach and an autothrottle inoperative? i.e. does it comply with JAR-AWO 131?
and
Have you read the AIC? If so, then you may wish to see AIC 61/99.
Perhaps someone who could benefit from additional Airmanship – discipline, skill, proficiency, knowledge, situation awareness, judgement. You choose, I can only guess from what has been written.
P.S. Is a 6 kt tail wind within limits for an auto approach and an autothrottle inoperative? i.e. does it comply with JAR-AWO 131?
and
Have you read the AIC? If so, then you may wish to see AIC 61/99.
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P.S. Is a 6 kt tail wind within limits for an auto approach and an autothrottle inoperative?
Who talked about autothrottle inoperative in yesterday's approach?
Pity, pity...
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alexban,
It's really difficult to know where to start replying to your expert opinion!
You are, quite simply, so far off the mark in your assessments, as to make it impossible, without taking enormous time and using lots of words of few syllables, to indicate to you just how wrong you've got it!
Have you ever been involved in flight testing?
Have you ever flown a 737?
Do you know anything about the aircraft?
...or its systems?
and as for advising me that 3000psi is the 'normal' pressure for hydraulics, now I know how my grandmother felt when I tried to teach her to suck eggs.
Best wishes,
Kit
(umpty thousand hours, all sorts of qualifications, and current very part-time 737 commander)
ps This is my last post on PPRuNe. It used to be a good place to have a chat about tech stuff, but now suffers from too many armchair experts who don't know one end of something very simple from the other. Bluecoat hasn't gone so far down that road, yet, so I'll still be there. I'm off to waste my spare time on things that might actually bring some light into my life, or let me bring some light into someone else's.
It's really difficult to know where to start replying to your expert opinion!
You are, quite simply, so far off the mark in your assessments, as to make it impossible, without taking enormous time and using lots of words of few syllables, to indicate to you just how wrong you've got it!
Have you ever been involved in flight testing?
Have you ever flown a 737?
Do you know anything about the aircraft?
...or its systems?
and as for advising me that 3000psi is the 'normal' pressure for hydraulics, now I know how my grandmother felt when I tried to teach her to suck eggs.
Best wishes,
Kit
(umpty thousand hours, all sorts of qualifications, and current very part-time 737 commander)
ps This is my last post on PPRuNe. It used to be a good place to have a chat about tech stuff, but now suffers from too many armchair experts who don't know one end of something very simple from the other. Bluecoat hasn't gone so far down that road, yet, so I'll still be there. I'm off to waste my spare time on things that might actually bring some light into my life, or let me bring some light into someone else's.
LEM “Who talked about autothrottle inoperative in yesterday's approach?”
No one!
The point of the question (which has not been answered), was to highlight the range of considerations that should be made for what, at face value, is an innocuous change in operation. Many operators / pilots may not make the link between the allowed technical deviation (no autothrottle) and any increased risk in operation.
If the autothrottle commences a smooth retard at 27 ft RA (?), then logically crew procedures for manual operation during an autoland should require similar operation by the pilot. Are there operators out there who have such procedures and if so how are they taught? If additional landing distance is required, how is this communicated; I was unaware of the 737 requirement, have other operators learnt from this exchange?
My concern here is less for any individual failing, but more for the lack of corporate or regulatory oversight. Our industry strives to manage threat and error, but at first if we are unable to identify the threats leading to reduced safety margins, then what hope is there for managing them. The managers / regulators should give guidance and help as well as police the operation; I found that this was not always the case often due to a similar lack of specific knowledge as indicated in the thread.
Kit stick in here with us; the industry needs such expertise and enlightenment:
“Captains often forget that they have to teach, first officers forget that they still have to learn, and individually we forget that we don’t know it all.”
No one!
The point of the question (which has not been answered), was to highlight the range of considerations that should be made for what, at face value, is an innocuous change in operation. Many operators / pilots may not make the link between the allowed technical deviation (no autothrottle) and any increased risk in operation.
If the autothrottle commences a smooth retard at 27 ft RA (?), then logically crew procedures for manual operation during an autoland should require similar operation by the pilot. Are there operators out there who have such procedures and if so how are they taught? If additional landing distance is required, how is this communicated; I was unaware of the 737 requirement, have other operators learnt from this exchange?
My concern here is less for any individual failing, but more for the lack of corporate or regulatory oversight. Our industry strives to manage threat and error, but at first if we are unable to identify the threats leading to reduced safety margins, then what hope is there for managing them. The managers / regulators should give guidance and help as well as police the operation; I found that this was not always the case often due to a similar lack of specific knowledge as indicated in the thread.
Kit stick in here with us; the industry needs such expertise and enlightenment:
“Captains often forget that they have to teach, first officers forget that they still have to learn, and individually we forget that we don’t know it all.”
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Easy to play with words, safetypee, isn'it?
Btw, thanks for this: "Kit stick in here with us; the industry needs such expertise and enlightenment"
You made me almost die from laughter! Really!
Kit, your excellent idea has got my vote! Run in your room, and stick there!
.
Btw, thanks for this: "Kit stick in here with us; the industry needs such expertise and enlightenment"
You made me almost die from laughter! Really!
Kit, your excellent idea has got my vote! Run in your room, and stick there!
.
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Autoland?
In answer to the questioin posed; yes, you can do an autoland with the A/Throttle inop.
As for the rest, where do you start?
How we get into slanging matches and these peurile; our SOPs are better than yours rubbish, I can't begin to understand.
There are limits (e.g. 10kts tailwind) and restrictions (Power supplies etc.) that apply to all aircraft, not all are the same restrictions.
I have done maybe a hundred autolands in 30 years and never had to use manual throttle control, nor have I ever done anything other than let the A/Throttle retard the levers and EVERY landing has been within the touch-down zone and perfectly acceptable as far as firmnes was concerned.
Let the designers design and let us fly. Being clever and retarding throttles at other than the designed height means you should (think you are) be a designer and let us pilots fly!
As for the rest, where do you start?
How we get into slanging matches and these peurile; our SOPs are better than yours rubbish, I can't begin to understand.
There are limits (e.g. 10kts tailwind) and restrictions (Power supplies etc.) that apply to all aircraft, not all are the same restrictions.
I have done maybe a hundred autolands in 30 years and never had to use manual throttle control, nor have I ever done anything other than let the A/Throttle retard the levers and EVERY landing has been within the touch-down zone and perfectly acceptable as far as firmnes was concerned.
Let the designers design and let us fly. Being clever and retarding throttles at other than the designed height means you should (think you are) be a designer and let us pilots fly!
