BA A319 missing winglet
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA A319 missing winglet
Hi,
Can somebody tell me why some of BA's A319/A320's are missing one of their winglets (i know that the A320-100 has no winglets)
For example - http://www.airliners.net/open.file/737544/L/
Thanks
c152pilot
Can somebody tell me why some of BA's A319/A320's are missing one of their winglets (i know that the A320-100 has no winglets)
For example - http://www.airliners.net/open.file/737544/L/
Thanks
c152pilot
![c152pilot is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Short spares/just failed and cleared to operate until hangar time available/whatever. They are of very questionable effectiveness and not at all necessary for the operation. Flying without one or both makes no difference and probably barely burns much more than a few kgs of fuel. So there is no great compulsion to pull an aeroplane out of service for repairs. They're nice to have, they are not important.
![Notso Fantastic is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North-West England
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah right. Winglets are no real use.....So please provide a proof source for that statement. Subjective views are worthless in this arena. And if you have published evidence which is convincing to all of us, my apologies in advance.
![RoyHudd is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well they are so vital the 757/767/777 don't even have them. Winglets are of questionable value to a shorthaul aeroplane where a high percentage of the flight is at lower speeds. They are optimised more for the high speed cruise. Even the 747 with its 6 foot winglets can quite happily fly without one. And the pilots wouldn't even begin to notice!
YOU show where your difference of opinion is valid considering BA is quite happy to send a 319 out on passenger service without one for an extended period!
YOU show where your difference of opinion is valid considering BA is quite happy to send a 319 out on passenger service without one for an extended period!
![Notso Fantastic is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not so sure they're optimized for high speed cruise. Perhaps LRC or max range cruise, where there will be more induced drag that can be minimized by the winglets.
In fact, I'd guess that in some applications, max speed may be REDUCED due to the decreased induced drag at high speeds, and the profile/wetted drag itself of the winglet
Of course, I could be wrong.
Hawk
In fact, I'd guess that in some applications, max speed may be REDUCED due to the decreased induced drag at high speeds, and the profile/wetted drag itself of the winglet
Of course, I could be wrong.
Hawk
![hawk37 is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Posts: 507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<<
I don't think those miniscule winglets of the Airbus make an appreciable difference.!
>>>
So what's the point of fitting them, as one assumes they're not there for decoration ?
I understand the theory of winglets (eg. 744, 738, A330) which tend to confer a fuel benefit over cost for sectors of 3 or more hours, but what of the Airbus-style wingtip fences (which I believe is their proper name) ?
I don't think those miniscule winglets of the Airbus make an appreciable difference.!
>>>
So what's the point of fitting them, as one assumes they're not there for decoration ?
I understand the theory of winglets (eg. 744, 738, A330) which tend to confer a fuel benefit over cost for sectors of 3 or more hours, but what of the Airbus-style wingtip fences (which I believe is their proper name) ?
![Golf Charlie Charlie is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sky
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Notso,
I believe the very fact that the airbus engineers managed to convince the airbus and B.A. bean-counters on the cost/benefit issue answers the worthiness of winglets. However, I do agree with you that the efficiency of winglets reduces with range, but to counteract this, de-rated take-offs, and hence savings in fuel and engine life cycles, must be the overriding factor.
RE: G-EUPA's situation - I imagine as soon as spares become available, and a suitable slot time in her schedule arises, she will have a pair of winglets fitted. Time will tell.
Regards,
VC10 Rib22
ps although this is a different aircraft, I'm sure the the theory is similar http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm
I believe the very fact that the airbus engineers managed to convince the airbus and B.A. bean-counters on the cost/benefit issue answers the worthiness of winglets. However, I do agree with you that the efficiency of winglets reduces with range, but to counteract this, de-rated take-offs, and hence savings in fuel and engine life cycles, must be the overriding factor.
RE: G-EUPA's situation - I imagine as soon as spares become available, and a suitable slot time in her schedule arises, she will have a pair of winglets fitted. Time will tell.
Regards,
VC10 Rib22
ps although this is a different aircraft, I'm sure the the theory is similar http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm
![Thumb](https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif)
![VC10 Rib22 is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One doesn't doubt that winglets pay for themselves over time. But not so much that one would schedule early maintenance to repair them! Their saving is very small- I very much doubt they pay for themselves over a period of a year or two, but over the lifetime of the aeroplane, yes most certainly they do provide a return in fuel saving.
The whole point of this thread is:
They are not aerodynamically important or essential
Their saving is small
It is not worth downtime to repair them
The whole point of this thread is:
They are not aerodynamically important or essential
Their saving is small
It is not worth downtime to repair them
![Notso Fantastic is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Beautiful South
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Devil](https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif)
Removed under CDL .............
Considering that BA is struggling with their spares supply ( EWS ) with just about every part for every aircraft, it is no surprise that winglets are missing.
Is there a BA 737 flying that hasn't had a Outboard aft flap rolling robbery ????
Considering that BA is struggling with their spares supply ( EWS ) with just about every part for every aircraft, it is no surprise that winglets are missing.
Is there a BA 737 flying that hasn't had a Outboard aft flap rolling robbery ????
![Hmmm](https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif)
![Hmmm](https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif)
![cirrus01 is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Notso says, effect of 1 missing is pretty small... In fact, the biggest "cost" of one missing is the inspection required every t/r to ensure the tape is still in place...
I think we have to add a small fuel penalty, even a small RTOW penalty, and I am sure that over many years, the marginal fuel saving pays for the winglet. However, whenever a catering truck knocks one off, we just carry on with a piece of tape in it's place <G> They are supposed to be replaced "at the earliest maintenance opportunity", but since we have no spares, they tend to fly like that for a few months...
I think we have to add a small fuel penalty, even a small RTOW penalty, and I am sure that over many years, the marginal fuel saving pays for the winglet. However, whenever a catering truck knocks one off, we just carry on with a piece of tape in it's place <G> They are supposed to be replaced "at the earliest maintenance opportunity", but since we have no spares, they tend to fly like that for a few months...
![NigelOnDraft is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: wishing I were over there
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
had one knocked off one of my 320s a few years back and was able to MEL it as I recall.
I did look into it a bit deeper and found out that it was reputed to have a 2% fuel detriment for having removed it.
2% over the life of an aircraft is a huge amount of money.
I did look into it a bit deeper and found out that it was reputed to have a 2% fuel detriment for having removed it.
2% over the life of an aircraft is a huge amount of money.
![flying scotsman is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CYYC
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well they are so vital the 757/767/777 don't even have them.
Are they essential? It doesn't look like it.
I'm not an airline pilot, or an aeronautical engineer. Just someone who was very interested in this topic before.
![goates is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ RoyHudd
Yeah right. Winglets are no real use.....So please provide a proof source for that statement.
b) Complete Wing Tip Fence
One may be missing provided:
1) exposed interior structure is covered, and
2) takeoff and approach climb limiting weight is reduced by 4%, and
3) fuel consumption is increased by 1,4%, and
4) wing tip fence must be replaced at the earliest maintenance opportunity and meanwhile, protective material must be inspected, before every flight and replace if necessary.
5) reduce one engine inoperative ceiling by 300ft.
Maintanance procedure required prior to each flight.
Hope this evidence is convincing enough.
![Wink](https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif)
So long,
DBate
![DBate is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Even the 747 with its 6 foot winglets can quite happily fly without one. And the pilots wouldn't even begin to notice
Strangely enough, I remember that the -400 used to have a fuel flow increase with this CDL, however its no more!
Mutt.
![mutt is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North-West England
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Thumbs up](https://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif)
Standard ME/CDL stuff. Allowing an aircraft to be flown with those provisions surely infers that the winglet is of real use, particularly in fuel savings. Maintenance costs, involving close inspections after every flight are not minimal, especially when time is precious down-route.
If we discounted every item covered in the MEL as not necessary for flight, there wouldn't be much left.
But thanks for the proof source DBate, which should help close this discussion. (Maybe!)
If we discounted every item covered in the MEL as not necessary for flight, there wouldn't be much left.
But thanks for the proof source DBate, which should help close this discussion. (Maybe!)
![RoyHudd is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Only half a speed-brake
So to continue on a different issue, what makes an aircraft lose a winglet (apart from the obvious hangar door)?
Do they tend just to fall off? I've been told that the "elephant ear" on a 737 classic likes to part ways down&south from time to time...
Anyone?
FD
(flap track body fairing if that term had no english speaking ancestor)
Do they tend just to fall off? I've been told that the "elephant ear" on a 737 classic likes to part ways down&south from time to time...
Anyone?
FD
(flap track body fairing if that term had no english speaking ancestor)
![FlightDetent is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Not sure what sort of an image is presented to fare-paying passengers by an airline whose aircraft have obvious bits missing and bodge tape in their place....? Particularly a 'major carrier'!
Are these winglets intentionally frangible to allow for idiots in catering trucks who drive into aeroplanes?
Poor old Nigel really does seem to be suffering rather with this clever new spares supply system.
Are these winglets intentionally frangible to allow for idiots in catering trucks who drive into aeroplanes?
Poor old Nigel really does seem to be suffering rather with this clever new spares supply system.
![BEagle is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are these winglets intentionally frangible to allow for idiots in catering trucks who drive into aeroplanes?
Poor old Nigel really does seem to be suffering rather with this clever new spares supply system.
2% over the life of an aircraft is a huge amount of money
Not sure what sort of an image is presented to fare-paying passengers by an airline whose aircraft have obvious bits missing and bodge tape in their place....?
![NigelOnDraft is offline](https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)