V/stol Transport
Thread Starter
V/stol Transport
Interesting letter in Flight this week re strapping four Pegasus' engines on a BAe 146. The author used the word 'barking' at the beginning of his letter, but is it?
I know Dornier had a go a few years back but that used a couple of banks of lift engines to augment two Pegasus'.
What do you think. I have seen some pretty impressive maths on this forum, lets have it for this 'mad' idea.
I know Dornier had a go a few years back but that used a couple of banks of lift engines to augment two Pegasus'.
What do you think. I have seen some pretty impressive maths on this forum, lets have it for this 'mad' idea.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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The author used the word 'barking' at the beginning of his letter, but is it?
If that does not bother you consider the lateral static instability of such a configuration in ground effect.
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Isn't that "Deja Vu again"? I beleive the 146 started life as a reworked (no rear ramp) & re-engined variant of the V/STOL transport HS681 that was meant to support the P1154 force.
I haven't been able to locate a picture but beleive there was one in the old "Profile" on the P1127 that certainly looked just like a 146 with a Pegasus under each wing. May be someone on Prune has one & could post a copy of it.
I haven't been able to locate a picture but beleive there was one in the old "Profile" on the P1127 that certainly looked just like a 146 with a Pegasus under each wing. May be someone on Prune has one & could post a copy of it.
Thread Starter
Good point Mr F.
Are the Pegasus engines particularley unreliable or are you just being hypothetically cautious.
Perhaps an engine developed from the Pegasus, bigger fan etc capable of providing enough thrust to allow an engine-out in the hover mode would do the job.
I know it all adds up to more weight and then we get into the thrust/weight paradox all over again.
Just thinking out loud of course but i'd pay to see something the size of a 146 go over a ski jump!
Are the Pegasus engines particularley unreliable or are you just being hypothetically cautious.
Perhaps an engine developed from the Pegasus, bigger fan etc capable of providing enough thrust to allow an engine-out in the hover mode would do the job.
I know it all adds up to more weight and then we get into the thrust/weight paradox all over again.
Just thinking out loud of course but i'd pay to see something the size of a 146 go over a ski jump!
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Ah TURIN, the Pegasus is very reliable as Mr Farley will testify but the 146 isn't HA!.
Years ago at the Farnborough airshow I saw a model of a VSTOL airliner that Hawker Siddley were looking at. It looked like a 757 with two lage fairings extending out from each side of the fuselage, running nose to tail. These housed lift fans driven from the two wing mounted engines. With the lift fans concentrated very close to the centre line of the aircraft, if you lost a lift fan you wouldn't have such a disasterous out of ballence effect as with a VSTOL 146.
The moldel is saw was in B.E.A. livery and it was on the Hawker Siddley stand. So that puts it early 70's!!!!,
Oh yes some bloke in a sandy coloured Harrier was making a dreadful racket!!
Years ago at the Farnborough airshow I saw a model of a VSTOL airliner that Hawker Siddley were looking at. It looked like a 757 with two lage fairings extending out from each side of the fuselage, running nose to tail. These housed lift fans driven from the two wing mounted engines. With the lift fans concentrated very close to the centre line of the aircraft, if you lost a lift fan you wouldn't have such a disasterous out of ballence effect as with a VSTOL 146.
The moldel is saw was in B.E.A. livery and it was on the Hawker Siddley stand. So that puts it early 70's!!!!,
Oh yes some bloke in a sandy coloured Harrier was making a dreadful racket!!
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Talking 146, if my memory serves me correctly, there was a very detailed article in the RAeS Journal some years ago which traced the Type's development from the original two-engined design ... ? I certainly have the paper on file but, having moved recently, would not be able to find it conveniently until I get out of move mode ...
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There have been many magnificent projects for V/STOL. The detail of the finest (against stiff competion) are somewhere in the mess but it was a proposal for the requirement that lead to the TSR2. This was a very non V/STOL aircraft which to get the V/STOL would take off and land (launch and be recovered?) from a flying VTOL carrier with 60 lift engines!
As someone said "Nothing comes down quite as fast as a VTOL upside down"
As someone said "Nothing comes down quite as fast as a VTOL upside down"
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Thats the chap!. I wonder what would have happened if they had scrapped the VSTOL bit and built it as a "normal" airliner?.
Deaf, I think there was a picture of said carrier in the book "Project Cancelled". SIXTY lift engines what were they thinking!
Rgds Dr.I.
Deaf, I think there was a picture of said carrier in the book "Project Cancelled". SIXTY lift engines what were they thinking!
Rgds Dr.I.
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The 56 engined lifting platform was a project of Short Brothers. NATO had issued a request for proposals for a Mach 2 strike aircraft to replace the Canberra, with a declared preference for V/STOL.
English Electric proposed the P17/a aircraft, and in partnership Shorts proposed the P17/d lifting platform. The French proposed a Mirage design with separate lift engines. (I believe the only supersonic VTOL aircraft to actually fly until the JSF contenders).
When the difficulties of producing an aircraft to meet the required capabilities came to light the V/STOL requirement was dropped. The government favoured a joint venture between English Electric and Vickers Armstrong and the TSR2 was the result.
Blackburn aircraft proposed the B.150, essentially a Buccaneer with reheated Speys, longer thinner fuselage and thinner wings. It fulfilled the majority of the requirements and would have cost much less than TSR2, but the RAF wouldn't have anything to do with a Navy plane, and the project went no further. (Lord Mountbatten later went on to persuade the Australians not to buy TSR2 in favour of the Buccaneer, although they then went on to buy the F111 instead)
pilot-lite
English Electric proposed the P17/a aircraft, and in partnership Shorts proposed the P17/d lifting platform. The French proposed a Mirage design with separate lift engines. (I believe the only supersonic VTOL aircraft to actually fly until the JSF contenders).
When the difficulties of producing an aircraft to meet the required capabilities came to light the V/STOL requirement was dropped. The government favoured a joint venture between English Electric and Vickers Armstrong and the TSR2 was the result.
Blackburn aircraft proposed the B.150, essentially a Buccaneer with reheated Speys, longer thinner fuselage and thinner wings. It fulfilled the majority of the requirements and would have cost much less than TSR2, but the RAF wouldn't have anything to do with a Navy plane, and the project went no further. (Lord Mountbatten later went on to persuade the Australians not to buy TSR2 in favour of the Buccaneer, although they then went on to buy the F111 instead)
pilot-lite
I recall when at Hurn in early 70's BAC proposed a VSTOL version of 1-11 with retractable lift fans/engines in fwd. and aft. belly holds.
Anybody have any info.
Rgds Dixi188
Anybody have any info.
Rgds Dixi188
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Btw.: The Dornier transport can be seen in the German Museum in Munich at the aeroespace part of it (town named Schleissheim near Munich). For a long time it was sitting at the main museum entrance, but had to make place for some bungee jumping like thing. A F-104 like supersonic vstol jet (BFW something?) can also be found in the museum.
Btw.: The Dornier transport can be seen in the German Museum in Munich at the aeroespace part of it (town named Schleissheim near Munich). For a long time it was sitting at the main museum entrance, but had to make place for some bungee jumping like thing. A F-104 like supersonic vstol jet (BFW something?) can also be found in the museum.
