Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Aircraft Innards

Wikiposts
Search
Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Aircraft Innards

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 24th Jun 2004, 03:57
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Aircraft Innards

Hey everybody...

I am an art director working on ABC TV's new series, "Lost," in Hawaii.

Our characters are the survivors from an L-1011 which hard-lands on a deserted tropical island, and to that end we bought a complete L-1011 in Palmdale and shipped it here to Hawaii, hacked it to pieces and set them up on the beach.

Part of our work in my department is to create "salvage technology;" the characters are going to be marooned for at least a season (we hope) and over the course of the show they will build all sorts of tools, shelter, and equipment using whatever bits and pieces they can salvage from the wrecked TriStar.

I would very much appreciate any suggestions, guidance or information that you very knowlegeable folks could give me regarding parts, supplies and equipment that might realistically be salvaged from a jetliner that has landed hard and broken into many pieces, but has not burned out (APU generators, wiring to use for lashing things together, pressurized-gas bottles, oxygen generators, that sort of thing).

Please bear in mind that we're just doing a TV show; doubtless we'll show a lot of stuff that "couldn't really happen," but it's all just for the entertainment of it.

Thanks in advance for all your helpful advice and information!

Best,

karl
ScottSpeicherLives is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2004, 08:26
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
which hard-lands on a deserted tropical island
That Island better be made of concrete then!

I doubt that it would be called a hard landing if it ended up in bits and pieces.

You could use a fire axe and send someone to hack off the #2 engine intake that you can use as a shelter. The hacking part would most likely take a few days.
fritzi is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2004, 09:04
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hendon
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
US EC-130 went missing near the Iranian coast in the 1980's.

Local farmers had hacked up the wreckage, flattend it and used it to repair their fences and roofing.

Lots of kerosene in a big plane like that. I believe you can mix it with sand and it will burn slowly, giving a steady heat.

What a waste of a TriStar, I hope you will clean up after yourselves.
noisy is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2004, 09:45
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London Gatwick
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Oxygen Generators generate heat when set off.

Maybe if you posted up situations where the aircraft parts could be used and then we can suggest what parts would be usefull, Its a little bit difficult when you think that there are literally hundreds of thousands of components to be used.

Kaddyuk is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2004, 09:55
  #5 (permalink)  

bat fastard
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Back home in Alba
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You hacked up a TriStar AND you're the director of a reality TV show?

Use the fire axe to hack the local savages to death. I suppose you could eat them also, kill two birds with one stone.
G-ALAN is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2004, 10:13
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hendon
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Kaddyuk

Let's imagine it's the first night. it's now beginning to get cold and you're hungry

And, er there are a couple of hundred corpses to get rid of.

you can use sections from the wreckage to provide a make-do shelter. Careful! Sharp edges!! Heat from kerosene or whatever cardboard you can find from the hold and you are in pretty good shape.

Unfortunately, the survivors may have no alternative but to eat airline food.
noisy is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2004, 13:55
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 3,505
Received 175 Likes on 96 Posts
Lots of potential banana skins with this idea.

I hope you have good insurance!

When you start cutting it up make sure you know what it is made of. On some a/c parts of the undercarriage are made of Berilium. Highly toxic if the dust is inhaled. Also Some use depleted uranium as mass balance weights for flying control surfaces. Not sure whether the Tristar uses either of those materials but you would do well to get in touch with some old Lockheed engineers as 'technical advisors'.
That is if you can find one who is so down on his luck he would associate himself with such a project.

Oh hang on haven't I just done that....bu88er!
TURIN is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 00:30
  #8 (permalink)  
Cunning Artificer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In the infamous Andes F27 'cannibal' crash, survivors trekked several miles to the next mountain top where the tail wreckage lay, to salvage the batteries and try and get a radio going. They would then be able to call for help. Unfortunately none of the survivors had any idea how to wire the radio up. What they missed when they were collecting the batteries was the Emergency Locator Transmitter in the cabin ceiling of the tail section. They only needed to piss on the salt water battery pack to get it working and it would have attracted the search teams to the site.

I assume that your survivors will be clever enough to get the APU running, fire up one of the galleys, hook up the electrics for lights, jury rig the In Flight Entertainment system for movies and music etc. but too dumb to get the emergency locator beacons working... ?
Blacksheep is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 01:27
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 1 Post
Blacksheep, a question:

In the mentioned Andes crash, why didn't the ELT er, start ELTing on it's own? Also, what is the point of saltwater batteries? Can the ELT freqs penetrate a decent amount of water when submerged? Or did I just get caught as your name suggests?

But if I were in this stituation I'd salvage one of the toilets to win major points with the ladies.
FakePilot is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 02:10
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi SSL,
As has been said, pity to wreck a DC-10, should have used an MD-11!

Does any of the tech crew survive this crash?

With a Flight Engineer aboard, there are numerous avenues that can be explored, using all sorts of equipment/wreckage from the aircraft.

Nothing like having an expert on hand, but I guess that is not what the story is about, have to use people that know nothing, should be plenty of them about.
Maybe you can use a plane load of media people, then we can be assured that nobody will know what they're talking about!

And Yes, be very aware what you are wrecking, some of those parts are not designed to be removed/disassembled by untrained people!

Cheers
What a laugh, this whole thing!
Flight Detent is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 03:03
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It would be basically impossible to put together any functioning electrical system without wiring diagrams and tools. It's unlikely that Average Joe... or for that matter... the average aircraft engineer.... could wire up the remains of an electrical system without these. The electrical connectors on the back of some of the radios and computers on any modern jetliner have dozens of electrical pins/sockets.... How do you know which is which, except perhaps by smashing them open with the fire axe... Then you run the risk of damaging the circuits inside (Unfortunately, Swiss Army Knives with their trusty screwdrivers are no longer allowed to be carried by passengers.... but you may find some in the cargo hold in passenger's bags). Whatever you did, it would still come down to a long trial and error process... and you may risk damaging the circuits by putting the wrong voltages on the wrong components.

You would never get the APU running (as it is controlled by a computer with masses of interconnecting wiring). You would probably flatten the aircraft battery attempting to start it, when you could put the battery to better, longer term, use.

Your best bet, as previously mentioned, would be to get the emergency locator beacons working (some are mounted close slide rafts, others in cupboards near doors). Failing that, I suppose you could blow a slide raft and paddle/sail to the nearest populated land mass? (you could make a sail from thermal insulation blankets).

There should be enough easily removable interior lightweight panels and thermal insulation material to make a decent waterproof shelter if the fuselage was in too many pieces to offer shelter. The seat cushions are removable, so you could make beds out of those if you couldn't figure out how to operate the manual override controls on the electrically-powered first class recliner chairs :-)
Cabin emergency lights have rechargeable battery packs. Hopefully not all of them will have been triggered to operate when the aircraft lost power.

Knowledge is everything. There are probably lots of things which an aircraft engineer could use... but would the average passenger recognise these things and know what to do with them?

As previously mentioned, steer clear of control surfaces. The depleted uranium balance weights should have been replaced with tungsten on aircraft still in use ... but your scrap aircraft may still have it inside. The same applies to emergency exit signs, toilet smoke detectors and other devices (they may contain small amounts of radiactive material).

BTW, who survives the crash (any flight/cabin crew members?).... or would that be giving the plot away?

Rgds.
NSEU
NSEU is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 05:01
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Far Far East - and a good touch of South
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Interesting idea .....

The premise of salvaging very much from the main airframe in the form of "workable" bits is, as has been mentioned, just about totally impossible. Obviously the ELTs, torches, extinguishers, portable O2 bottles etc are easy to get at and out. The rest (of the useful bits) are more problematic without some technical knowledge. So do have a pilot and (better) an engineer in the survivors!!

Let's look at a list of what could be useful if circumstances allow (I guess you have a certain amount of poetic license with a script - but I will try to be realistic).

The premise of no fire is useful so let's stretch this to the limit :

In the proper format for survival - Protection Location Water & Food ....

Protection :
The slide rafts are the obvious primary survival aid. If they can be accessed and with 4 a side (in each door) a few should be. Each slide is also a primitive raft and has a small survival pack attached to it. This includes (but not a complete list). Heliograph, water, Dramamine (sea sickness tablets), day/night flares, 10 guage pistol flares (pen type), bailer (bucket), repair kit (for the rubber material), plugs, dingy knife etc etc. The list goes on and it depends on the regulatory authority of the aircraft's owner nation. But lots of flex here for much quite useful stuff. Each slide/raft is self contained so plenty of duplication if they can be found/salvaged. Rafts will deploy inflated if not carefully removed by someone who knows how it works. Probably one or more will have already deployed. They use a Nitrogen bottle to inflate and once inflated are very ungainly. Uninflated they are just heavy !!

A slide raft has a full canopy and can be quite comfortable and dry if correctly placed on a flat surface. It will need pegging down in any sort of wind. Instant housing and protection.

There is lots of carpet in the cabin and most of it will come up without too much work. Likewise there is plenty of insulation and sound proofing materials. The stuff in the cabin will need some heavy cutting but the hold walls are lined with good material that comes away easily.

Location = Find Me : Well the ELTs are the obvious BEST THING. But there will be plenty of fuel to start a controlled signal fire. Forget the HF radios etc - you will never get them to work. It is often bad enough when the fuselage is in one piece to get it all working - smashed up - forget em.

Water : There is 1000 liters of semi potable water in the aft tank - it can be drained from using the fuselage in the aft section. Try not to get the "blue" water drain. This could prove a useful humor diversion at that juncture !!

Food : Well there are the galley carts and usually quite a bit of dry stores for initial consumption. Obviously a decent triage of resources (perishable v non) will help to make it last. Lots of booze around too - so controlling that would be a first issue for me...

Now let's look at some longer term issues :

1. Fuel - even if the main tanks have ruptured there will be plenty of fuel for a small group for quite a while. This really depends on where the wings are relative to the body and wether the undersides are accessible. First though you will need the fuel/water drain stick (pogo). This is usually in the rear (No5) hold. Once you have that and access to the underside of a wing you can get at any of the drain nozzles and get fuel in any quantity you want with damaging the tank structure. Overwing defuelling is a bitch and not really practical without some fairly fancy kit. A length of hose and a good such will just no hack it !! With fuel - even Jet A1 (kerosene) you can do much in the survival situation.

2. Cargo. This must be your best "script" bet. There is a huge potential for just about anything you want to put in the hold and have survive. Give the "survivors" a couple of "small" diesel generators and some garden light kits and they could be in clover. Just remember to blend the Jet Fuel with 1% oil and they will, run for ever. Plenty of Aeroshell 555 (aviation engine oil) in the rear hold in the engineering pack. Those RB211's like to burn oil and no 1011 I ever flew went anywhere with a few liters of 555 in the back hold.

3. Flyaway Pack. Depending on the operator and destinations, most 1011s carry a simple engineering pack in the 5 hold. This could well hold a jack and tow bar as well as a spare wheel and some tools. Nothing terribly useful on the face of it but I can think of some variations to bring them into play.

I could go on for quite a while with this and I wouldn't mind doing so, but it might not be best for public consumption. PM me and perhaps we can take it further.

DG
Dibble&Grub is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 11:30
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If the passengers were "Blue Peter" and "The A-Team" then they would have a workable SST by lunchtime!
BigHitDH is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 12:00
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
With a Flight Engineer aboard, there are numerous avenues that can be explored, using all sorts of equipment/wreckage from the aircraft.
So if only a 2-man crew we're gonners
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 12:05
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Finding Out on 121.50
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why not not hack it up then you could use the APU to power the galley

Also get some nice cold beers then. After all why make life hard for yourself.
G-Foxtrot Oscar 69 is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 12:41
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dibble&Grub and Blacksheep,

After a crash - ‘‘Forget the HF radios etc - you will never get them to work’’.

Please Sir, I did – I did - and it got us out of the Sumatran jungle one day. Mind you - not that we’d have been missed for too long.

Bristow Helicopters, Djambi Sumatra, early 70’s. Two of us jumped into a Wessex 60 (ex RBMR Blacksheep) and set off for a new Total oil rig site, about an hour away.

Tony S, the pilot, dropped me off at the site and headed for the river to pick up under-slung fuel drums. About ten minutes later he returned and went into a hover over the log ‘heli-pad’. Tail rotor drive lets loose and he started spinning at about 50 feet – spectacular! Down he came on the logs, and rolled.

End result, after the blades had disintegrated and flown over my head - one very sorry looking Wessex.

So there we were, out in the jungle, base camp oblivious to our little event and us not expected back for twelve hours, at which point the other Wessex may come looking for us. We needed some attention before that, at least Tony did, but the problem was - getting a message out.

I’d fitted an HF in Singapore – so there was a good chance I could un-fit it. A pair of bolt cutters were found from the riggers (subtlety wasn’t part of the plan) and, within 30 minutes, out came the HF wiring harness and racks.

Plug in the boxes and control head, on top of a D6 Caterpillar, string a wire ‘antenna’ across to the nearest tree, connect to the Cat battery, connect a headset to loose wires with masking tape, flick the PTT wire against the Cat, cross fingers - and talk.

‘Djambi, Djambi, Hotel Vodka’. (The two Wessex were Hotel Whisky and Hotel Vodka.)

‘Hotel Vodka, Djambi. Go ahead’. Bloody Hell - it worked.

An hour later Tony, with only a broken wrist, was on his way back to Djambi.

Mind you – do the same with an Air Transport Aircraft – Mmm – possible.

Picky of Hotel Vodka’s last flight at;

http://209.196.171.35/article_tonystafford.htm
forget is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 13:14
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Far Far East - and a good touch of South
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Point made *Forget*, but you had the advantage of knowing where the wiring was. The L1011 is/was a much sterner beastie.

I have seen engineers, grown men all, who could cow a doberman with a glare and stop small bullets in their teeth - et cetera; mop reluctant tears at the very thought of doing an Aerial Tuning Unit change on the 1011



DG
Dibble&Grub is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 16:14
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Posts: 4,273
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Depending on how involved you want to get what tools are or can be made available is also a consideration. Some things off the top of my head:


There are fireaxes to use if not lost in the wreckage. Handy for ripping up things or even cutting wood for poles/firewood/splints/whatever.

Seatbelts for strapping things together.

Cargo nets. Depending on the type you might make a useable fishing net - the sort that would sit in at the opening of a stone barrier across a stream or tidal pool. Some string or palm fibre tied between the webbing to reduce the net seive size.

All those pocket knives that we used to conveniently carry in our ....erm.....pocket but now are in the checked-in luggage.

Batteries for spark to light a fire. Possibly something similar using the sun & the landing light's parabolic reflector to heat some tinder.

The fibreglass insulation could be teased apart to use as a wick for the Avtur.

Seat cushions & those thin blankets.

Thin sheets of aluminium folded/bent to make waterproof storage & cooking containers. Thicker stuff for shelter.

It might be possible to make a spark gap transmitter. Useable as long as there's battery power. Christ, Marconi managed it a century ago.

The miles of electrical wiring is a goldmine. Fishing lines, to tie things or make bow fire drills etc etc.
Tinstaafl is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 17:42
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 1 Post
Yes, I too was thinking a spark gap transmitter would be easily constructed with the correct knowledge. Even if you couldn't get a message out, you'd annoy everyone enough to come looking for you.
FakePilot is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2004, 18:30
  #20 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wow, thanks, guys!

There's a lot of useful (and entertaining) stuff in your responses...please, please, please keep 'em coming...
ScottSpeicherLives is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.