FAA set to ban EL AL anti-missile system from US airports
Beagle
Being a bitter old pile of self loading frieght is really getting old. Your like a broken record. No matter what the issue its the same old stupid American call from you. Did some yank splash your ass on 1v1 somewhere, run your dog over, piss in your wheeties or otherwise ruffle your feathers to the point that anything American gets pissed on by you?
In my 3 plus years on the prune you are among the most bitter of the regular posters.
Being a bitter old pile of self loading frieght is really getting old. Your like a broken record. No matter what the issue its the same old stupid American call from you. Did some yank splash your ass on 1v1 somewhere, run your dog over, piss in your wheeties or otherwise ruffle your feathers to the point that anything American gets pissed on by you?
In my 3 plus years on the prune you are among the most bitter of the regular posters.
Morning Westie. So nice to hear from you again!
The 'Flight Guard' electronic counter-measure system to protect civilian aircraft against shoulder-fired surface to air missiles will be installed on El Al planes in June, as part of an Israel Civil Aviation Administration (ICAA) test, Transportation Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Thursday.
The U.S. Federal Aviation Authority (FAA), however, refuses to allow civilian planes to be equipped with the flare-based system due to safety risks.
According to Transportation Ministry spokesman Avner Ovadiah, the new anti-missile system will be installed on one El Al aircraft in June, with tests lasting two to three months. If the tests are successful, he said, the system would be installed on all 30 El Al aircraft.
Protection against terrorists armed with ManPADs is a major area of concern currently. Warning, missile killing and false threat sensing are inextricably linked. In future, laser turrets may prove fully effective; however, the interim solution adopted by the Israelis appears pragmatic. The risk of misidentified release will reduce with the development period indicated; the system will only be installed if tests prove successful. If that then gives the Israelis a good item to export elsewhere, then good luck to them - and the same goes for anyone else coming up with an effective self-protection suite.
The damage to the DHL A300 seems to have resulted not so much from the missile warhead, but by either hydrostatic shock loading or the fuel fire. Protection is vital to prevent a smoking hole in the ground the next time some $hit with a ManPAD system engages a civilian airliner - even if the protection system wasn't designed by the US.
The FAA needs to get its head out of its ass on this.
The 'Flight Guard' electronic counter-measure system to protect civilian aircraft against shoulder-fired surface to air missiles will be installed on El Al planes in June, as part of an Israel Civil Aviation Administration (ICAA) test, Transportation Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Thursday.
The U.S. Federal Aviation Authority (FAA), however, refuses to allow civilian planes to be equipped with the flare-based system due to safety risks.
According to Transportation Ministry spokesman Avner Ovadiah, the new anti-missile system will be installed on one El Al aircraft in June, with tests lasting two to three months. If the tests are successful, he said, the system would be installed on all 30 El Al aircraft.
Protection against terrorists armed with ManPADs is a major area of concern currently. Warning, missile killing and false threat sensing are inextricably linked. In future, laser turrets may prove fully effective; however, the interim solution adopted by the Israelis appears pragmatic. The risk of misidentified release will reduce with the development period indicated; the system will only be installed if tests prove successful. If that then gives the Israelis a good item to export elsewhere, then good luck to them - and the same goes for anyone else coming up with an effective self-protection suite.
The damage to the DHL A300 seems to have resulted not so much from the missile warhead, but by either hydrostatic shock loading or the fuel fire. Protection is vital to prevent a smoking hole in the ground the next time some $hit with a ManPAD system engages a civilian airliner - even if the protection system wasn't designed by the US.
The FAA needs to get its head out of its ass on this.
Last edited by BEagle; 25th Apr 2004 at 06:03.
Possibly I am stupid, but doesn't the bit about disarming this system below a "safe altitude" mean that it won't work exactly in the flight phase where the threat is greatest?
Protection is vital to prevent a smoking hole in the ground the next time some $hit with a ManPAD system engages a civilian airliner - even if the protection system wasn't designed by the US.
The FAA needs to get its head out of its ass on this.
The FAA needs to get its head out of its ass on this.
The FAR/JARs which do govern the design and retrofit of most of the world's aircraft do not normally attempt to make trades in the amount of lives lost in the aircraft itself vs those lost on the ground by purposely ejected flaming bombs sic
Somehow the public, as yet, just won't stand for this. Nor do the regulatory authorities consider the trade between the possibility of a single manpad fired by a crazie vs in-air malfunctions by an equally deadly source of ignition which is to be added to the aircraft.
Since the regulations as empowered by governments do not consider these balances in their cost benefit to their populace, it is doubtful that the FAA which is only an authority can act in any other way except by presedential decree or act of congress supported by the greater majority
Hoo-ah. And all those other noises you lot love to make.
'Way to go' - oh, and "Have a nice day"!
OK - Some excellent American things: F-14/15/16/18/22 . Coca cola. Apple pie. The V-8 engine. Mercury/Gemini/Apollo.
Some not so good American things: Plaid 'pants'. Hamburger backside. Dell customer service! Your leech-like lawyers. Not being able to pronounce Aluminium, Benny Hill or Robin Hood properly...
Some excellent Brit things: Beer (it isn't all called 'ale'). Aston Martin - except that's now mostly German. The Harrier (yes, it was originally ours!)
Some not so good Brit things: The weather. The Tornado GR1/F3.......
Chill, dudes.
'Way to go' - oh, and "Have a nice day"!
OK - Some excellent American things: F-14/15/16/18/22 . Coca cola. Apple pie. The V-8 engine. Mercury/Gemini/Apollo.
Some not so good American things: Plaid 'pants'. Hamburger backside. Dell customer service! Your leech-like lawyers. Not being able to pronounce Aluminium, Benny Hill or Robin Hood properly...
Some excellent Brit things: Beer (it isn't all called 'ale'). Aston Martin - except that's now mostly German. The Harrier (yes, it was originally ours!)
Some not so good Brit things: The weather. The Tornado GR1/F3.......
Chill, dudes.
Last edited by BEagle; 25th Apr 2004 at 15:03.
Laser DIRCM sets needed for full coverage of large 777/A330 sized ac are certainly under very active development. Surprisingly (to me at any rate) effective coverage to achieve a high PK against a ManPAD can be achieved with a relatively small number of sites on the a/c.
It's a difficult one. If you fitted them to your airliner, would you be announcing "We protect our passengers better than other airlines" - or "We take you to airports where we need this level of protection!".......
It's a difficult one. If you fitted them to your airliner, would you be announcing "We protect our passengers better than other airlines" - or "We take you to airports where we need this level of protection!".......
If the false alarm rate is one in a hundred take-offs or landings (see post above), and all the aircraft using Heathrow had the system installed, the systems would fire there about 12 times a day for false positives.
I think it is hard to argue this improves safety.
I think it is hard to argue this improves safety.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 76
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What of 'progress'?
Threats evolve, so that some systems currently in use, such as 'Matador' are no longer effective against all missiles. Well, that's my understanding. Against an SA-7 you might be okay, but a 'Stinger' can beat the 'Matador' system, yes?
So I would assume that whatever system is chosen must be upgradeable to deal with future threats. Otherwise you have this million-dollar piece of hardware that is just taking up space.
It's hard to see how someone living on an airport approach path would be very understanding when flares start raining down on the children's birthday party. Not in the USA, anyway. Even if no one was injured there would be a suit for emotional trauma for sure. So, whatever their technical merits, I think flares for civil aircraft are probably a non-starter. The government enjoys soveriegn immunity so that this is not a concern of theirs to a large degree.
So I would assume that whatever system is chosen must be upgradeable to deal with future threats. Otherwise you have this million-dollar piece of hardware that is just taking up space.
It's hard to see how someone living on an airport approach path would be very understanding when flares start raining down on the children's birthday party. Not in the USA, anyway. Even if no one was injured there would be a suit for emotional trauma for sure. So, whatever their technical merits, I think flares for civil aircraft are probably a non-starter. The government enjoys soveriegn immunity so that this is not a concern of theirs to a large degree.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the sticks
Posts: 9,862
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Israel Ambassador to the US Daniel Ayalon said negotiations between Israel and the US for granting El Al a license for its passenger planes to the US to carry anti-missile systems would soon be concluded. El Al will be first airline in the world whose planes carry such systems.
Ayalon said even after El Al is privatized, the government would continue to urge it to buy only Boeing planes, and not those built by Airbus. "If Israel wants to increase its exports to the US, at the same time, it must increase its purchases in the US market," he said.
Ayalon added that Boeing contributed to Israel's economy through its reciprocal procurement agreements.
Ayalon said even after El Al is privatized, the government would continue to urge it to buy only Boeing planes, and not those built by Airbus. "If Israel wants to increase its exports to the US, at the same time, it must increase its purchases in the US market," he said.
Ayalon added that Boeing contributed to Israel's economy through its reciprocal procurement agreements.
