Mobile Phones in flight - again (merged)
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Mobile Phones in flight - again.!
I watched a Documentary on TV the other night, and it commented on the moment when Tony Blair was told about
Dr. Kelly's death. It was in flight on approach to the detination (Can't remember where - Africa, I think) and they showed the cabin of the aircraft when many of the journalists hit their mobiles immediately to pass the story to their papers back in London.
As I recall, this was a BA Charter, and not Rafair.
Can I assume that the rules still apply on the PM's Charter, or were special arrangements made for them.?? It would still be potentially dangerous would it not.??
Dr. Kelly's death. It was in flight on approach to the detination (Can't remember where - Africa, I think) and they showed the cabin of the aircraft when many of the journalists hit their mobiles immediately to pass the story to their papers back in London.
As I recall, this was a BA Charter, and not Rafair.
Can I assume that the rules still apply on the PM's Charter, or were special arrangements made for them.?? It would still be potentially dangerous would it not.??
Mobile Phones
Somebody put me straight.
If they're using SATFONES, is that OK ?
Sleeve.
If they're using SATFONES, is that OK ?
Sleeve.
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I hate to open this can of worms again, but apart from two false cargo smoke indications on one of the small turboprop twins what evidence is there for banning the use of mobile phones due to aircraft problems??
Talking to my mates at Nokia they say the problem is with the base stations going mad cause the phone connects to loads of them.
Talking to my mates at Nokia they say the problem is with the base stations going mad cause the phone connects to loads of them.
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Taildragger:- No, spcial rules do not apply on the PM's flight. The journos may have been using aircraft phones.
Sleeve Wing:- No, satphones are not OK.
FE Hoppy:- The CAA inform us they have a significant body of evidence. Available to be viewed. The link was posted on PPRuNe within the last couple of months - try doing a search. Your friends at Nokia are also correct - they do confuse base stations.
Sleeve Wing:- No, satphones are not OK.
FE Hoppy:- The CAA inform us they have a significant body of evidence. Available to be viewed. The link was posted on PPRuNe within the last couple of months - try doing a search. Your friends at Nokia are also correct - they do confuse base stations.
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I personaly couldn't think of anything worse than sitting next to somebody shouting "HELLO I'M ON THE PHONE, ON A PLANE!!!". I do hope that the blanket ban on mobiles on planes stays!.
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Mobile Phone interference
Hello there,
I'm a final year aeronautics degree student doing my dissertation on RFI and its effects on aircraft systems and instrumentation. I would very much appreciate any information or advice anyone has to give me with regards to this subject,
Thanks
Andy
I'm a final year aeronautics degree student doing my dissertation on RFI and its effects on aircraft systems and instrumentation. I would very much appreciate any information or advice anyone has to give me with regards to this subject,
Thanks
Andy
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Heard lots about this but have not seen any conclusive proof that mobile phones affect computer systems. I once took a mobile phone call whilst in a petrol forecourt to the horror of another driver filling up her car. She protested so I walked 3 metres to the outside of the gargae perimeter. No problem then. Although we are not allowed to use mobiles on the flight deck in flight they are used on the ground. If mobiles affect computers then why are they used in the vicinity of any computers. Does anyone have any hard evidence to justify the non use of mobile phones on aircraft or which may affect computers.
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A F/E told me that the give-away on a 747-200 was that the pressurisation control valve indicator on his panel flickered when a mobile phone was in use (and presumably the pressurisation!)
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The issue of the mobile phones interefering with electronics I suggest possibly dates back to the analogue system. The power output of the phone was higher - up to 4 watts for "portable" phones which were in fact car phones on a battery pack. The handheld ones operated up to 2 watts, compared to the current digital mobiles on about 0.25 watts.
On the petrol station issue, and perhaps relevant here, mobiles (analogue as far as I am aware) had been proven to affect on very rare occasions the fuel pump electronics, allegedly causing false readings for the amount of fuel dispensed.
There have been many scare stories about mobiles causing fires at petrol stations, but I believe these all to be false. Afterall, the constant sparking in an alternator at the brushes, or a spark in a solenoid or starter on starting an engine are far more likely causes of vapour ignition - plus turbo temperatures / catalyst temperatures on running vehicles are higher than the ignition point of petrol vapour. Furthermore, the stories have just been stories, with no further information. The major fuel company we use has no record of fuel fires specifically caused by mobile phones.
At "point blank" range, mobiles can cause interference as demonstrated by holding an operating mobile phone by an amplified PC speaker, but the interference disappears at a short distance.
There is one other issue in this-in the UK we have a high density of cell masts. Handover from one to the next is very much dictated by the cell you are on, broadcasting the details of the cells that surround it and that it is prepared to hand over to. This is optimised for use at ground level, and according to one of the big 4 networks, would not be able to support mobiles jumping across several cells at once - even if the signal were able to penetrate the aluminium fuselage and that the cell sites transmit generally on a horizontal plane.
Finally, it is known that phones are left on unintentionally on many flights!
On the petrol station issue, and perhaps relevant here, mobiles (analogue as far as I am aware) had been proven to affect on very rare occasions the fuel pump electronics, allegedly causing false readings for the amount of fuel dispensed.
There have been many scare stories about mobiles causing fires at petrol stations, but I believe these all to be false. Afterall, the constant sparking in an alternator at the brushes, or a spark in a solenoid or starter on starting an engine are far more likely causes of vapour ignition - plus turbo temperatures / catalyst temperatures on running vehicles are higher than the ignition point of petrol vapour. Furthermore, the stories have just been stories, with no further information. The major fuel company we use has no record of fuel fires specifically caused by mobile phones.
At "point blank" range, mobiles can cause interference as demonstrated by holding an operating mobile phone by an amplified PC speaker, but the interference disappears at a short distance.
There is one other issue in this-in the UK we have a high density of cell masts. Handover from one to the next is very much dictated by the cell you are on, broadcasting the details of the cells that surround it and that it is prepared to hand over to. This is optimised for use at ground level, and according to one of the big 4 networks, would not be able to support mobiles jumping across several cells at once - even if the signal were able to penetrate the aluminium fuselage and that the cell sites transmit generally on a horizontal plane.
Finally, it is known that phones are left on unintentionally on many flights!
The CAA research seems to be two-pronged:
Interference Levels In Aircraft at Radio Frequencies used by Portable Telephones
looks at the electric field strength in various parts of aircraft caused by a mobile phone in other parts. The highest field strength observed was about 4.5 V/m in the flight deck when a 2W 900 MHz phone was used in the forward cabin of a 737. This would exceed the limits in the certification standard of equipment before 1989, but not more recent equipment. Avionics bay fields reached about 1 V/m.
Effects of Interference from Cellular Telephones on Aircraft Avionic Equipment
reports on experiments in which a number of pieces of avionics certified to the older standards were subjected to field strengths of 30 and 50 V/m, equivalent to putting a mobile phone about a foot from the equipment. Unsurprisingly, they found the equipment misbehaved from time to time.
I have to say that this doesn't strike me as a significant body of evidence indicating a problem, but nor is it an all-clear for mobile phones.
Interference Levels In Aircraft at Radio Frequencies used by Portable Telephones
looks at the electric field strength in various parts of aircraft caused by a mobile phone in other parts. The highest field strength observed was about 4.5 V/m in the flight deck when a 2W 900 MHz phone was used in the forward cabin of a 737. This would exceed the limits in the certification standard of equipment before 1989, but not more recent equipment. Avionics bay fields reached about 1 V/m.
Effects of Interference from Cellular Telephones on Aircraft Avionic Equipment
reports on experiments in which a number of pieces of avionics certified to the older standards were subjected to field strengths of 30 and 50 V/m, equivalent to putting a mobile phone about a foot from the equipment. Unsurprisingly, they found the equipment misbehaved from time to time.
I have to say that this doesn't strike me as a significant body of evidence indicating a problem, but nor is it an all-clear for mobile phones.
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I am flying as FO on the B737 NG and during a night low visibility approach we always heard the sound a mobile phone makes when it tries to find a net, you know that didididadada in our phones. It was really harassing, probably some kind of passenger trying to contact someone. Shortly before the self confidence test our autopilots disengaged. We made a go-around, made an announcment to please switch off all electronic equipment and gave it another try. It went all straight - like in the books.
Well in the end we were not shure what made the autopilots disengage, and I really can't tell. But I think maybe the cellular phone had something to do with it. But that is my personal opinion - nothing official.
Well in the end we were not shure what made the autopilots disengage, and I really can't tell. But I think maybe the cellular phone had something to do with it. But that is my personal opinion - nothing official.
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Lets look at it another way. How many flights do think actually operate without mobile phones switched on? Possibly every flight on a decent sized aircraft will have at least one or two phones switched on. Every pilot who has flown in the last two years can probably give examples of phones being on in the cockpit let alone in the cabin. My airline has a 120 different parameters constantly monitored on every flight, about 2 a year are MAYBE attributed to mobile phones. Name one working pilot who would return to stand if a passenger said he had left his mobile on in his hold luggage. Lets be realistic it just isn't a problem worth worrying about. Now lets talk about non-precison approaches (28 ZRH-no excuse in a wealthy country), current fuel levels (ac arriving with less than 1.5 times reserve fuel), the use of native language instead of English, TCAS response being incorectly taught in some airlines (DHL victim), hold over time calculation not calculated correctly (i:e stopping when the precipitation stops..this is taught by many airlines but is INCORRECT), fatigue, pilots who aren't given crew food and suffer low blood sugar, commands with less than 5000hrs,etc etc. The list is endless. Mobile phones aren't worth worrying about compared to the real safety issues.
There is a very detailed CAA Technical Report from last year that lists a lot of alarming faults that a mobile ‘phone has been proven to cause...
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Hi,
I experienced a mobile phone incident during my first Helicopter Flight Test for my PPL (H) in an R22.
The examiner answered his mobile whilst I was flying, and when he was finished with the call he placed it down in front of his seat.
He used this opportunity to pull various circuit breakers thus testing my responses to various warning lights coming on and off.
(I passed by the way).
I am now always suspicious of examiners placing things in front of their seats, and make a point of ensuring their mobiles are off before the flight.
I notice when I have left my mobile on by the dit dit dit in the headphones, but can't say if any of the instruments have been affected.
I experienced a mobile phone incident during my first Helicopter Flight Test for my PPL (H) in an R22.
The examiner answered his mobile whilst I was flying, and when he was finished with the call he placed it down in front of his seat.
He used this opportunity to pull various circuit breakers thus testing my responses to various warning lights coming on and off.
(I passed by the way).
I am now always suspicious of examiners placing things in front of their seats, and make a point of ensuring their mobiles are off before the flight.
I notice when I have left my mobile on by the dit dit dit in the headphones, but can't say if any of the instruments have been affected.
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There is .....
NO proven evidence for Mobile phone interference with aircraft systems.
The reason they are banned from use in the cabin is that, as we all know, they have to 'talk' to the host cell every so often. As an aircraft ascends the phone puts out a higher and higher powered signal as it desperately tries to locate the increasingly distant base. A combination of this high power and the direction in which the signal arrives at the masts can cause the cellphone system to crash.
An aircraft that had avionics susceptible to mobile phone interference from the cabin would never be certified.
SoS
NO proven evidence for Mobile phone interference with aircraft systems.
The reason they are banned from use in the cabin is that, as we all know, they have to 'talk' to the host cell every so often. As an aircraft ascends the phone puts out a higher and higher powered signal as it desperately tries to locate the increasingly distant base. A combination of this high power and the direction in which the signal arrives at the masts can cause the cellphone system to crash.
An aircraft that had avionics susceptible to mobile phone interference from the cabin would never be certified.
SoS
Moderator
Strange, though, that Industry electronics/avionics publications maintain that the problem is complex and that the jury is still well and truly out on the assessment.
The comments re certification may well be reasonable in an EMI-hardened military system but the question to hand relates more to the lower capability civil standards ? I suggest that there is more than enough anecdotal, and ample controlled experimental, data to suggest that the answer is not so simple as some might prefer ...
The comments re certification may well be reasonable in an EMI-hardened military system but the question to hand relates more to the lower capability civil standards ? I suggest that there is more than enough anecdotal, and ample controlled experimental, data to suggest that the answer is not so simple as some might prefer ...
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Mobile phones HAVE effect on the 737-300/400!
In a very unofficial 'test' done by the guy who checked me out on the 737 (in CAVOK conditions, I hasten to add!), he found out that if he made a phonecall, or received a phonecall, on the ILS the autopilots WILL disengage.
He performed his unofficial 'test' after hearing the 'dit dit dit' mobile sound in his headset. At the time they were flying CAT2 ILS into Copenhagen and both autopilots disengaged during the mobile sound. After landing he found out from the FA's, that one of the pax on bussness class had used his mobile during the approach.
So, receiving or making a phone call can/will disconnect autopilots.
In a very unofficial 'test' done by the guy who checked me out on the 737 (in CAVOK conditions, I hasten to add!), he found out that if he made a phonecall, or received a phonecall, on the ILS the autopilots WILL disengage.
He performed his unofficial 'test' after hearing the 'dit dit dit' mobile sound in his headset. At the time they were flying CAT2 ILS into Copenhagen and both autopilots disengaged during the mobile sound. After landing he found out from the FA's, that one of the pax on bussness class had used his mobile during the approach.
So, receiving or making a phone call can/will disconnect autopilots.