Icing . What is acceptable
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Join Date: Aug 1999
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Icing . What is acceptable
Turned up for work the other day , a/c covered in ice and snow . no de ice avail , snow was brushed from wings , hoar frost (excuse poss dodgy spelling ) everywhere . We didnt go thou engineers said 'its ok' was I being a pussy , wat can u take off with ?
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Your POH should contain info on how much, and where, ice buildup is acceptable. If the information wasn't available to you when you were preparing to departure, then the no-go call was the right one to make.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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I agree with Squawk 8888. I was a presenter at a DAC sponsored conference some years ago where the motif was "THERE"S NO SUCH THING AS A LITTLE ICE"
Lots of crashed aircraft pictures to bring home the point.
Lots of crashed aircraft pictures to bring home the point.
The answer is NONE.
From the smallest to the largest airplane, they all will succumb to a lack of ice and frost removal prior to flight. You made the right call and you need to let anyone who is suggesting otherwise, that they read these responses before they send somone else off to crash.
Search the NTSB database (search ice or frost) for the hundreds of accidents that have occurred because of inadequate removal, or inadvertent build up of ice or snow prior to flight. Of course none of these record the ones who did it and landed, or never got airborne and got away with it.
We operate in an area of seriously bad weather for 5 months of the year - and ice and snow removal seems to occupy our entire lives!
There is an excellent first hand account of what happens here on PPRuNe.
The FAA wrote the basic rule of icing right into Part 91.
There is a ton of light reading on the subject, if you are interested.
AC 135-16
AC 120-60
AC 91-51A
AC 91-13C
A couple of years ago, I attended a Cessna Caravan operators safety meeting dealing with cold weather operations. Following a spate of accidents, Cessna prepared a very good video and CD presentation on the effects of ice on airplanes. At this conference was a pilot who descibed first hand the alarming behaviour of the aircraft after it was attempted to take off with ice present.
Easier to know completely what you are up against, than becoming a statistic and the subject of research and analysis!
One final consideration when the engineers (or anyone else is trying to persuade you to go). Look carefully at 91.527 line (a) - No pilot...."
Guess where the buck stops when it all turns to crap!
From the smallest to the largest airplane, they all will succumb to a lack of ice and frost removal prior to flight. You made the right call and you need to let anyone who is suggesting otherwise, that they read these responses before they send somone else off to crash.
Search the NTSB database (search ice or frost) for the hundreds of accidents that have occurred because of inadequate removal, or inadvertent build up of ice or snow prior to flight. Of course none of these record the ones who did it and landed, or never got airborne and got away with it.
We operate in an area of seriously bad weather for 5 months of the year - and ice and snow removal seems to occupy our entire lives!
There is an excellent first hand account of what happens here on PPRuNe.
The FAA wrote the basic rule of icing right into Part 91.
§ 91.527 Operating in icing conditions.
(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has --
(1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;
(2) Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces; or
(3) Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it smooth.
(b) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly --
(1) Under IFR into known or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions unless the aircraft has functioning de-icing or anti-icing equipment protecting each propeller, windshield, wing, stabilizing or control surface, and each airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system.
(c) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly an airplane into known or forecast severe icing conditions.
(d) If current weather reports and briefing information relied upon by the pilot in command indicate that the forecast icing conditions that would otherwise prohibit the flight will not be encountered during the flight because of changed weather conditions since the forecast, the restrictions in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section based on forecast conditions do not apply.
(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has --
(1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;
(2) Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces; or
(3) Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it smooth.
(b) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly --
(1) Under IFR into known or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions unless the aircraft has functioning de-icing or anti-icing equipment protecting each propeller, windshield, wing, stabilizing or control surface, and each airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system.
(c) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly an airplane into known or forecast severe icing conditions.
(d) If current weather reports and briefing information relied upon by the pilot in command indicate that the forecast icing conditions that would otherwise prohibit the flight will not be encountered during the flight because of changed weather conditions since the forecast, the restrictions in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section based on forecast conditions do not apply.
AC 135-16
AC 120-60
AC 91-51A
AC 91-13C
A couple of years ago, I attended a Cessna Caravan operators safety meeting dealing with cold weather operations. Following a spate of accidents, Cessna prepared a very good video and CD presentation on the effects of ice on airplanes. At this conference was a pilot who descibed first hand the alarming behaviour of the aircraft after it was attempted to take off with ice present.
Easier to know completely what you are up against, than becoming a statistic and the subject of research and analysis!
One final consideration when the engineers (or anyone else is trying to persuade you to go). Look carefully at 91.527 line (a) - No pilot...."
Guess where the buck stops when it all turns to crap!
Join Date: Apr 2000
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bush,
Good on you. You did the right thing. Did you ask anyone who called you a pussy if they would ly with the airplane in that condition?
<img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: SentryIP ]</p>
Good on you. You did the right thing. Did you ask anyone who called you a pussy if they would ly with the airplane in that condition?
<img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: SentryIP ]</p>
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Spent nearly an hour scraping heavy frost off an a/c last Saturday before flying. It was painful towards the end as I'd forgotten my gloves. Didn't mind a bit though, I'd much rather be in a hospital frostbite report than an AAIB report....
You're not a pussy, trying to fly in an iced up aircraft doesn't make you a hard man.
You're not a pussy, trying to fly in an iced up aircraft doesn't make you a hard man.
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Having flown in the Arctic and after having many hours of cold weather operations, I agree with what has been said. First of all, there is a legal issue that has been stated. Secondly, there is no such thing as a little ice that you can safely go with. Hoarfrost on a wing is not acceptable as the airflow is disturbed as it passes over the wing. The net affect is increased stall speed and no margins for maneuver. There have been many precedents set from guys that have taken off in iced up, frosted up aircraft. Sadly, they are not here to tell us their story. We can only read about their mistakes in safety investigation reports.
You did the right thing. Complements of the season, you are here to talk about it.
You did the right thing. Complements of the season, you are here to talk about it.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Hi guys,
We don't get much ice here in South Africa, except maybe a bit of hoare frost in the middle of winter an the middle of the night.
What I would like your opinions on is this - can one use avgas to clean the wings of frost? It melts any frost and may keep them frost free long enough to get airborne, and it works(I think) on the same principle as de-icing fluids.
Just a thought.
4g
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">
We don't get much ice here in South Africa, except maybe a bit of hoare frost in the middle of winter an the middle of the night.
What I would like your opinions on is this - can one use avgas to clean the wings of frost? It melts any frost and may keep them frost free long enough to get airborne, and it works(I think) on the same principle as de-icing fluids.
Just a thought.
4g
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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4G, NO!!!!!!!! For several reasons beside the fact it is a safety hazard in and of itself. The only reason it removed the frost previously is that the fuel temp was above the freezing temp of water. There are better options, leave the aircraft in the sun until the frost melts. Or, if the air temp is warm enough a mop and some hot water. If the temp is not warm enough a mop and hot water followed up by spraying the areas treated with gylcol or moonshine. There is an old bush pilot trick, that is approved by the FAA, of polishing the frost with a length of hemp rope. But unless you know what you are doing, don't try it.
Richard
Richard
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I speak from a near death experiance! Ice and airplanes, helicopters, birds, and insects don't mix!!!!
Please note: FAR 91.527 listed above applies to "Large and Turbine Powered Multiengine Airplanes" not small aircraft. FAR 91.9 (a) prohibits flight without complying with aircraft operating limitations. It's the flight manual that prohibits flight in icing conditions, or takeoff with ice/frost adhearing to the aircraft.
I know the last paragraph was knit picky. You made the right choice!
Please note: FAR 91.527 listed above applies to "Large and Turbine Powered Multiengine Airplanes" not small aircraft. FAR 91.9 (a) prohibits flight without complying with aircraft operating limitations. It's the flight manual that prohibits flight in icing conditions, or takeoff with ice/frost adhearing to the aircraft.
I know the last paragraph was knit picky. You made the right choice!
An old pilot once told me " flying with ice on your wings makes you a test pilot on the first flight of an untested aircraft" I have never forgotten that and still abide by his rules.
Good call on not going. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Good call on not going. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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A fair few years ago a Cessna Twin finished up as a smoking heap just of the far end of the runway.
The pilot (a CAA EXAMINER) was found , by the rescue crew,Scraping ice off what was left of the wings with a credit card !!
Regards
Merry Christmas
The pilot (a CAA EXAMINER) was found , by the rescue crew,Scraping ice off what was left of the wings with a credit card !!
Regards
Merry Christmas
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Sorry for being repetitive but, NO ONE SHOULD EVEN THINK to try to take off with ANY ICE on any surface on you aircraft.
I understand that when someone has little flight time and that someone has hears hangar talk about "super-skills" regarding flying aircraft full of ice, there could be a shadow of a doubt about maybe having a "little ice" anywhere (I´ve seen it).
Everybody that have had rapid ice buildup, must know what are the effects on your envelope.
Yes, I had it once and the best way to describe me during it is: <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
I understand that when someone has little flight time and that someone has hears hangar talk about "super-skills" regarding flying aircraft full of ice, there could be a shadow of a doubt about maybe having a "little ice" anywhere (I´ve seen it).
Everybody that have had rapid ice buildup, must know what are the effects on your envelope.
Yes, I had it once and the best way to describe me during it is: <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
