use of MEL after closing doors
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: home...in europe
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Hi,
I think that Flying_Tuur gave the most correct answer to this question.
JAR 145,which regulates the MEL,says that the MEL is to be used until closing doors,but if a failure occurs after that (during taxi-out i.e)is left to capt.the decision to proceed or not ,using "good sense and good airmanship".
In my point of view,this is a comercial response,since what is good sense to me may not be for you.
There are two reasons to go to MEL:
1.We have to see if we don`t have restrictions to the next leg(out of a maintenance base,etc.)
2.We have to take a look to make sure we don´t have operational restrictions to this flight.
Doesn`t make any sense depart with an item no-go even out of base (unless lamps,emerg.lights,etc.).
When an item is not no-go,normally some restrictions apply like the example given by Flying_Tuur about the pack.My questio is:Am I legally supported if I have an incident above FL250??
But I also agree with LEM...
Companies and countries difer in their rules.Some say nothing about this subject(is left to you),and some use the "moving under it`s own power" rule.
And finally.....don`t forget.....
If you don`t die in an accident ,investigation will kill you.....
I think that Flying_Tuur gave the most correct answer to this question.
JAR 145,which regulates the MEL,says that the MEL is to be used until closing doors,but if a failure occurs after that (during taxi-out i.e)is left to capt.the decision to proceed or not ,using "good sense and good airmanship".
In my point of view,this is a comercial response,since what is good sense to me may not be for you.
There are two reasons to go to MEL:
1.We have to see if we don`t have restrictions to the next leg(out of a maintenance base,etc.)
2.We have to take a look to make sure we don´t have operational restrictions to this flight.
Doesn`t make any sense depart with an item no-go even out of base (unless lamps,emerg.lights,etc.).
When an item is not no-go,normally some restrictions apply like the example given by Flying_Tuur about the pack.My questio is:Am I legally supported if I have an incident above FL250??
But I also agree with LEM...
Companies and countries difer in their rules.Some say nothing about this subject(is left to you),and some use the "moving under it`s own power" rule.
And finally.....don`t forget.....
If you don`t die in an accident ,investigation will kill you.....
Folks,
The following remarks apply to FAA definitions, and to the operation of US certified aircraft in conformity with the aircraft MMEL, and whatever portion of it individual carriers use. That means almost everybody outside 'Europe".
I do my best to avoid JAA, so far I have been successful, finding an N registered seat even in the JAA "sphere if effluence"
You need to know the FAA definition of dispatch. It's nothing to do with the Flight Despatch department,although both the dispatcher and the PIC have to sign the dispatch release certificate,commercial dispatch as in departure, doors closed, pushback, engine start etc.
Those who understand an FAA Operational Control 'Dispatch Release Time' know that is a takeoff time. For the purposes of Operational Control, and the application of the MEL, the aircraft is dispatched at the start of the takeoff, all checks and clearances received, aircraftc is airworthy etc. ( Same same CAR 233 release for an international flight in Oz)
Those flying B767/757 will remember/understand that STATUS messages, messages that can determine the "pre flight airworthiness", messages that might prevent dispatch,are valid up to takeoff, thereafter they are advisory, or they will escalate to a higher level message.
On the 747-400, any status level message that is a potential stopper becomes a higher level message after engine start, and the MEL has to be consulted for "dispatch relief". At least that's the theory, there have been continual fun and games over the years, quite a few software/data mods and "temporary procedures". Be smart, don't be concerned with definitions, regulations etc., consider any message and decide up to 80kts, if you are still flying something that doesn't suppress most messages from thrust set until aorborne plus time/height.
For pilots who were not originally trained in the US system, this has been a area of mystery for years, why I don't know because all the Boeing manuals I have ever used spell it out in language even a pilot should be able to understand.
Likewise FAA definitions/rules ---- "A pilot shall not take off an airplane unless ---- " last time I looked it was somewhere around Part 121.630 plus.
I long ago came to the conclusion what, for does of uz what spic English as de mudder tongue" it is a matter of "divided by a common language", there is dispatch, and there is dispatch.
Tootle pip,
The following remarks apply to FAA definitions, and to the operation of US certified aircraft in conformity with the aircraft MMEL, and whatever portion of it individual carriers use. That means almost everybody outside 'Europe".
I do my best to avoid JAA, so far I have been successful, finding an N registered seat even in the JAA "sphere if effluence"
You need to know the FAA definition of dispatch. It's nothing to do with the Flight Despatch department,although both the dispatcher and the PIC have to sign the dispatch release certificate,commercial dispatch as in departure, doors closed, pushback, engine start etc.
Those who understand an FAA Operational Control 'Dispatch Release Time' know that is a takeoff time. For the purposes of Operational Control, and the application of the MEL, the aircraft is dispatched at the start of the takeoff, all checks and clearances received, aircraftc is airworthy etc. ( Same same CAR 233 release for an international flight in Oz)
Those flying B767/757 will remember/understand that STATUS messages, messages that can determine the "pre flight airworthiness", messages that might prevent dispatch,are valid up to takeoff, thereafter they are advisory, or they will escalate to a higher level message.
On the 747-400, any status level message that is a potential stopper becomes a higher level message after engine start, and the MEL has to be consulted for "dispatch relief". At least that's the theory, there have been continual fun and games over the years, quite a few software/data mods and "temporary procedures". Be smart, don't be concerned with definitions, regulations etc., consider any message and decide up to 80kts, if you are still flying something that doesn't suppress most messages from thrust set until aorborne plus time/height.
For pilots who were not originally trained in the US system, this has been a area of mystery for years, why I don't know because all the Boeing manuals I have ever used spell it out in language even a pilot should be able to understand.
Likewise FAA definitions/rules ---- "A pilot shall not take off an airplane unless ---- " last time I looked it was somewhere around Part 121.630 plus.
I long ago came to the conclusion what, for does of uz what spic English as de mudder tongue" it is a matter of "divided by a common language", there is dispatch, and there is dispatch.
Tootle pip,
Beware MELs.
As previous correspondents have commented, it all depends … see AAIB report.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_507754.hcsp
Although the national authority and / or the operator may set the legal position or give guidance, their judgment on the MEL may not be in agreement with that of the manufacturer; particularly if the aircraft was designed / built in a country different from the operation or before any new ruling was effective i.e. pre JAR
In the above incident the manufacturer assumed that the crew would trim the aircraft; a reasonable assumption, but as has often been shown before, we are all subject to human error and have differencing perceptions.
I understand that the manufacturer has now incorporated an operational MEL DDG item stating ‘It may be necessary to trim the aircraft in yaw / roll’ under the MEL entry for dispatch with the Yaw Damper inoperative. Thus this MEL has relevance after pushback, and crews are required to consult it in full.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ty_507754.hcsp
Although the national authority and / or the operator may set the legal position or give guidance, their judgment on the MEL may not be in agreement with that of the manufacturer; particularly if the aircraft was designed / built in a country different from the operation or before any new ruling was effective i.e. pre JAR
In the above incident the manufacturer assumed that the crew would trim the aircraft; a reasonable assumption, but as has often been shown before, we are all subject to human error and have differencing perceptions.
I understand that the manufacturer has now incorporated an operational MEL DDG item stating ‘It may be necessary to trim the aircraft in yaw / roll’ under the MEL entry for dispatch with the Yaw Damper inoperative. Thus this MEL has relevance after pushback, and crews are required to consult it in full.
