Practice Autolands
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Practice Autolands
When pilots request a practice autoland, we (?ATC perspective) normally switch off all other ILs's not associated with the runway and generally will try and keep the critical/sensitive areas clear. My question really is, are you flying a practice CATIII approach/autoland as most of the time our ground equipment is only CAT1/II certified and not CAT3 at all? I have seen pilots do a practice autoland even when we only had a CATI certified ILS. What is the difference doing a practice autoland when the ground equipment is only CATI / II certified as opposed to CATIII? We would normally inform the crew that we have no safeguards in place as it is quite a long list of items and can take up to 30 minutes to get in place. We will generally not approve a practice autoland/approach in VMC if the crew insists on having all the safeguards in place. What do you normally expect from ATC when you request a practice autoland and how many do you need to do per semester or year to remain current? Can you do the practice approaches/autoland in the simulator (yes, of course) , but does it legally count as sufficient or do you need live practice to remain current?
Thanks
Fart
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Thanks
Fart
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Guest
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At every aircarrier that I have worked for, autolands have been requested in order to maintain AIRCRAFT certification as well as pilot currency. In nearly every case, no special request was made to ATC and could be done with a CAT I ILS so long as the approach plate indicated a GS TCH of at least 42 feet and contained no limitation as to the use of the GS below a certain altitude.
These were done in the Lockheed TriStar which is very tolerant of minor localizer irregularities. Common sense must be applied, of course.
Other types may require more care.
These were done in the Lockheed TriStar which is very tolerant of minor localizer irregularities. Common sense must be applied, of course.
Other types may require more care.
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I am required to do one autoland in the aircraft between sim checks. I would think it unneccesary to have LVPs in place for a practice autoland. However it would probably help if the Cat II holds were used and airfield ops aren't sleeping in they're Land Rovers inside the restricted areas. This should ensure the integrity of the ILS signals without causing too much hassle
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Practice autolands, are very important to maintain pilot and or aircraft currency.
Some autolands must be carried out on a CAT 111 ILS, ie for the MD83, most aircraft systems will cope with a CAT 1 ILS. Some airports,that have approachs over the sea, will have limitations for landing, and take-off, ie Boston, Nice, Larnaca, due to ship movements. The main point of a practice autoland, is system familiarity,and SOP's. With CAT111b "0"DH, you do not reqiure to have any visual reference. For pilots based at airports that do not have CAT11, or CAT111 ILS's, but whom are required to maintain recency ie 3 approach's between an OPC "Base Check", then they will need to practice. Also if we were flying a CAT1 approach to minima ie 200ft 550m at 6am after a long night flight, then we would more than likely be carrying out a practice autoland, however airmanship would dictate, that we informed ATC first.
Some autolands must be carried out on a CAT 111 ILS, ie for the MD83, most aircraft systems will cope with a CAT 1 ILS. Some airports,that have approachs over the sea, will have limitations for landing, and take-off, ie Boston, Nice, Larnaca, due to ship movements. The main point of a practice autoland, is system familiarity,and SOP's. With CAT111b "0"DH, you do not reqiure to have any visual reference. For pilots based at airports that do not have CAT11, or CAT111 ILS's, but whom are required to maintain recency ie 3 approach's between an OPC "Base Check", then they will need to practice. Also if we were flying a CAT1 approach to minima ie 200ft 550m at 6am after a long night flight, then we would more than likely be carrying out a practice autoland, however airmanship would dictate, that we informed ATC first.
Guest
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Keeping things clear until we are down is nice, to prevent excessive localiser deviations, but we appreciate that it is a CAT I ILS (esp when you say ILS is unprot) so the thumb will be somewhere near the AP disconnect switch just in case (not that it isn't anyway) I have to do 2 in the next 2 weeks before my sim so expect it soon!
CCCCCcoooooouuu.....gh
CCCCCcoooooouuu.....gh
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on our ARJ fleet, we are required to a autoland a day, and this is normally done during the first landing of the day. It has nothing to do with the crew (as a matter of fact we would muuuch prefer to manual land 
), but is a test for aircraft's capability. We used to have some failure on the system right when you were required to use it. We don't even mention it to ATC.
For us, autoland, even ones in CAT III, are a piece of cake (somebody surely will say the opposite here). We get checked for CATIII every six months in the simulator. We then fly approaches in bad vis, and the TRI/E will give you different failures before/after the marker. You are then required to analyze those failures and either go-around, proceed with the app or take a lower CAT minima.
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... cut my wings and I'll die ...
), but is a test for aircraft's capability. We used to have some failure on the system right when you were required to use it. We don't even mention it to ATC.For us, autoland, even ones in CAT III, are a piece of cake (somebody surely will say the opposite here). We get checked for CATIII every six months in the simulator. We then fly approaches in bad vis, and the TRI/E will give you different failures before/after the marker. You are then required to analyze those failures and either go-around, proceed with the app or take a lower CAT minima.
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... cut my wings and I'll die ...
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Our fleet (757/767) requires an autoland every 35 days to maintain currency (aircraft only - no crew currency issue). We are reminded by ACARS and/or flight departure papers to do an autoland ASAP when within (I believe) ten days of end of currency. It is my understanding that is a BIG DEAL to get aircraft back into the program if autoland currency expires (maintenance and flight ops involvement).
We are instructed to announce/request to ATC that an autoland will be performed so that ILS hold lines will be enforced.
We are instructed to announce/request to ATC that an autoland will be performed so that ILS hold lines will be enforced.
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Fart,
WRT switching off the unused ILS - is that a set down procedure?
At Heathrow both ILS continue to radiate CAT3, I won't make any special effort to clear the Localiser/Glideslope sensitive areas, although I will tell the crew that these areas and thus the ILS signals will not be protected. Everyone seems happy with that.
Gonzo
[This message has been edited by Gonzo (edited 03 July 2001).]
WRT switching off the unused ILS - is that a set down procedure?
At Heathrow both ILS continue to radiate CAT3, I won't make any special effort to clear the Localiser/Glideslope sensitive areas, although I will tell the crew that these areas and thus the ILS signals will not be protected. Everyone seems happy with that.
Gonzo
[This message has been edited by Gonzo (edited 03 July 2001).]
Guest
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Although our ILS's are shielded, we still radiate one ILS only. I guess the authorities here are afraid that a pilot might select the wrong frequency and hence the restriction over here. Our ILS's are also designed in a way that you cannot select ILS's for the same runways , say 12/30 or in your case 27/09 at the same time. You can only select 09 or 27 , but not both together. We can however in conditions of vis better than 3000 meter radiate two of the 4 ILs's and they should be and can only be in our case 12L and 30L or 30R and 12R. We may under no circumstances radiate 12 L and 12R and 30L and 30 R at the same time! Our parallels are only 300 metres apart, maybe thats why we have to do it. Our spacing in CATII or III is 20 nm in trail, provided there is no departures and 30 nm in trail if the Tower wants to insert a departure in between. No intersection deps are permitted - full length only. Because the runways are so close, we suspend parallel rwy ops when vis is below 1500m and use a single rwy. My guess again is that the all these restrictions are due to poor airport design and no other particular reason that I am aware of. It is a major disruption to all operations in CATII/III as you know. Our legislator also has an approach ban policy requiring the RVR to be 350 m or greater before the aircraft reaches 1000 ft(3nm) on the approach before it may continue (CatII).
Hope it helps?
Cheers
Fart
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Hope it helps?
Cheers
Fart
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Guest
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"Does it require a CATII or III ILS or can the aircraft remain current on a CATI practice autoland?"
As I understand it, airplane CAT III Autoland currency can be maintained with a CAT 1 runway and Cat 1 weather conditions. As long as the aircraft lands the way it should, there should be no problems with currency.
Note that the airplane systems don't know what the visibility is or what type of ILS is available at a particular airport, so these are ignored from an airplane point of view.
From the point of view of aircraft system serviceability, however, the systems must meet the required minimums for Cat III autolands (wrt to redundancy, electrical bus isolation, etc).
Rgds.
Q.
As I understand it, airplane CAT III Autoland currency can be maintained with a CAT 1 runway and Cat 1 weather conditions. As long as the aircraft lands the way it should, there should be no problems with currency.
Note that the airplane systems don't know what the visibility is or what type of ILS is available at a particular airport, so these are ignored from an airplane point of view.
From the point of view of aircraft system serviceability, however, the systems must meet the required minimums for Cat III autolands (wrt to redundancy, electrical bus isolation, etc).
Rgds.
Q.
