kinsman,

Totally agree with you.
:ok:

Psr777 - slightly off topic, but may I say how impressed I am at your demeanour in the face of such provocation?

BOAC
S/Haul BA LGW

I have to agree fully with kinsman.

Comments that appear to imply that the Captain has no choice but to do as the CC ask (or tell) him are not helpful and demonstrate a poor understanding of human interaction.

Any member of the crew is entitled to challenge a decision if he/she disagrees strongly enough with it (remember the PACE mnemonic) but they still have to remember that the captain is in command - end of story.

In any one given airline, if SOP's are not being followed, then enquiries need to be made. If the SOP's are daft, then they need to be challenged. And if a captain appears to make a strange decision given the circumstances, then anyone can ask him later the reasons for it. As Psr777 points out, his actions may be based on a misunderstanding. Clearing up such misunderstandings can be helpful. Confrontation by saying "You have to do what I'm asking you" cannot.

BOAC,
 

"slightly off topic..."
Way off topic! :hmm:

kinsman :ok:

For the record, used Medlink on several occasions. Works VERY well (especially on the satalite phone).

For those of you who have your 'tits in a tangle' over PSR777 trying to get the f/deck to call Medlink BEFORE calling for on-board assistance, and following Kinsman's comment on the irrelevance of some orders, the person to have a go at is the Head of Tech and Training, BA, who certified the order, nor PSR777, and the relevant order (in the c/crew order book) is FCO 4260b. NB Crew are told in this order that Medlink will advise whether to PA for a doctor, and the wording is "the Flight Crew will call Medlink ......" (my italics) which is understandably read by some as an imperative?

Continued after an unexpected and hurried call off standby!

BOAC

I guess the person who wrote that instruction has never tried to get a phone patch on HF mid Atlantic! Minutes may count and if there is a qualified person on board who may be able to help while I am trying to get Medlink then that will be my call and I would hope yours!

Such instructions are for guidance; only a fool would follow such instructions to the letter at the risk of a passenger’s life. What happened to common sense?

By the way if you are going to quote me I did not use the phrase irrelevant, I inferred the procedure as written was misguided in some circumstances. For information I have used Medlink to good effect on several occasions. I have also had the good fortune to have professional cabin crew who have used their heads and good old common sense and made a PA for help.

So I refer you to my earlier assertion, SOP’s are there to avoid the need to brief but are not set in stone, they cannot cover every eventuality and not all of them are very well thought out. The fact this instruction comes from the BA safety department does not alter that!

Right then........back to the original discussion!!

Captain Stable, the captain is most definitely in command of the aircraft and 99.9% of the crew understand and respect that. As far as I am understand what we are talking about, that isn't the point being made.

I am unsure as to the extent of the medical training that flight crew undertake, so I cannot comment. However, cabin crew aviation medicine training is quite in depth, and we are given strict guidelines, that we are told, we must adhere to.

Notwithstanding the use of common sense for life threatening situations, when you will always PA for a doctor of medicine at the same time as trying to organise contact with Medlink, it is poor judgement of the Commander of the aircraft to refuse to contact Medlink, simply because he/she thinks it unnecessary. THAT is the issue being discussed and it has happened.

Good practice dictates that everyone works together, which means communicating with each other and not being afraid to question decisions, to fully understand the situation facing you.

Whilst I am sure it is not the intention of any of the posters here, the sentiment that the Captain is in Command, so deal with it, is not helpful, and, I reiterate, goes against everything CRM tries to accomplish.

The working relationship between cabin crew and flight crew has been damaged by the locked door policy, everyone dislikes it, but we work with what we have. If the Flight Crew community feel that the SOP's for the cabin crew, with regard to Medlink are incorrect, they need to deal with the source of those SOP's. They should not berate the cabin crew for trying to follow them.

Every time a medical situation occurs, the assessor does just that. That person has a responsibility to assess the situation and proceed accordingly. Common sense and training will dictate whether we feel it necessary to PA for immediate medical attention or to simply try to contact Medlink to get some back up. If the connection to Medlink is not possible due to technical difficulties the the Commander of the aircraft should inform the cabin crew. To refuse to contact Medlink because they don't think it necessary is, in my opinion, unreasonable.

Warlock2000: I take it you didn't like the tea?:bored:
I'll get a pretty blond to bring it in next time......I think his name is Hans! :E :E

Psr777 - I don't disagree at all with what you've written.

It is quite possible that the Flight Deck crews' briefings in use of Medlink is insufficient. It is also quite possible that their training in First Aid is different from yours - I couldn't comment on that (which is a shame, because if yours is far in excess of FD training, then it would be sensible for everyone to do the same courses - a help in building understanding between the Cabn and the Flight Deck).

Poor SOPs, misunderstood SOPs and poor communication can all be quite easily addressed if the problem is brought to the notice of the relevant authorities.

My only real worry in all that has gone before on this thread is that some cabin crew appear to want to stamp their little feet and shout "But you must call Medlink - I've told you to" when the captain refuses. This is not good CRM and is not so easily addressed. Should the captain (for whatever reason) refuse to call Medlink, a CC member can always point out where the SOPs are documented, and challenge the captain's decision (with care) using the PACE procedure, which is very non-threatening and non-confrontational.

Captain Stable:

Totally understand where you are coming from, to a certain degree.

To Quote:
" "

It can be argued that for every cabin crew member that stamps their feet etc., there is an equal number of flight crew who do the same...........To quote a captain I met recently, " I don't care what happens behind that door, I am the most important person on this aircraft" (we were chatting about crew food at the time).

The real point here is, Commanders of the aircraft should be willing and able use all avenues of information available to them, ALL the time.

None of us are perfect, the majority of us are able to do the above, the few cabin crew and flight crew who aren't, damage the working relationship we have and should be managed out of the business. The inability to work as a team is its downfall. The era of "I am pilot, therefore I am God" is gone......as is the era of "I am the In Charge Crew Member, therefore I am god".

The "Old School" Flight Crew and Cabin Crew seem to have a real problem with this, and I cannot understand why. As an "old school" trainee, I get it somewhat. What I don't understand is the neccessity of these crews to make the job difficult for everyone concered, To all those who are stuck in the timewarp, wake up, smell the coffe etc., get on with the job at hand, which is working together to provide a safe, secure environment for our customers to travel in. This will not happen if the team is divided.

The crux of the problem is communication. The understanding of it and the delivery of it.

End of the day, we all rely on each other when we fly, so why do we all "fight" so much?

Flight Crew put in an extreme amount of hours of training, not to mentin cost and expect to be afforded the respect a Captain "deserves". Cabin Crew Seniors feel that they have also put their time in and expect to be afforded respect aLso.



:sad: :sad: :sad:

Recent experience of Medlink... (details sketchy for obvious reasons)

Pax injures himself in the toilet, early in the flight, causing severe back pain. One of CC is an ex-nurse and takes responsibility for looking after the pax. Medlink is contacted and permission is given for medical kit to be opened and pain killers to be given. Ex-nurse makes decision to stick with paracetomol and not open kit.

Usual procedures are instigated and ambulance is requested to meet the flight, unfortunately - possibly due to the Chinese whispers syndrome - the call was passed as a head injury. Decision was made by the receiving paramedic as to the resourses required. This resulted in the pax/patient waiting 20 minutes for an ambulance for transport to hospital, (accept that this is partly a failing on the responding ambulance service), also means the aircraft turn around is delayed and the operating crew are delayed from disembarking due to company SOPs.

Crew appeared to do all the right things - indeed their judgement and treatment of the pax was spot on but it seems that here Medlink was the weak(est) link as the crew decided to use their own experience and judgement above Medlink's and the details of the pax's injury was incorrectly reported by Medlink.

Maybe a common sense approach is more appropiate than Medlink sometimes?

Psr777 - agree 100%.

I trust my cabin crew - particularly the more experienced ones. I know captains who don't. And that's not good CRM, either.