I have a question for SIRWA69. As you say you fly lots over 100 times a year, and you say you could give the safety demo yourself. Out of interest, can you tell me where you should congregete as evacuees? Where in relation to the aircraft should all the passengers be when they are out? It does state where on the safety card. Also, if exiting through the overwing exit, which side of the wing do you get off for a land evacuation?

These are all points which are all on the safety aids , but how many people really know?

If you are first out, you are expected to help with the evacuation on the ground. ie hold the slide down and help pax of the slide. This is why it is VITAL that the pax at the exits listen to the demo at all times. They are just as important as the cabin crew.

There are many airlines now which operate on minimum crew, therefore there is not a crew member for every exit, so the passengers in the exit rows have to take control.

Captain Stable and Jettesen

Yes I do occasionally read the safety card. I always read it when I am on a new type for the first time. I always check the type of opening mechanism on the nearest exit.

As far as helping passengers off the slide etc. I have never heard that mentioned in a safety briefing and never read it on a card. I was however told about it when I was lucky enough to visit Gulf Airs safety school where I also got a chance to actually open an over wing exit.

I may not be a typical passenger but as I fly more than most my chances of being involved in an incident are higher than most. My initial point is that, like the vast majority of frequent flyers I don't always watch the briefing.

However if the totty is tasty then I am all eyes. ;)

One more point on the same subject. A few months ago I flew BAH - LHR when they had the stop and crew change at Cyprus. Now as we departed BAH we were given a safety briefing. Then as we were taxing out of Cyprus we were given another safety briefing by the new crew. I was bemused by this as none of the passengers had got on or off. We had all had the briefing out of Bahrain so presumable we could still remember it, why give it again?

On On

edited for spelling

I'm sorry to say it ain't just the pax that this problem manifests itself in.

Once positioned on a non-company flight which happened to have a deadheading crew from my company onboard.

One member read the paper (why give out papers b4 the briefing if you want people to watch!) two had a gossip, and another took 40 winks while the safety briefing was being carried out.

Not on! Poor example to the passengers and most unprofessional to the operating crew conducting the briefing. I dont think I made myself popular when I pointed this out but cest la vie!

I can only back up what Captain Stable has mentioned.

Take a 737 - there are something like 10 different types flying around in various configurations. I for one couldn't remember what's where on each one.

BA's classic 747s had the overwing exits blocked didn't they. Good thing to remember/read up on (at the time)

Another thing I do is count the seat rows to the nearest exit. I've been through our cabin fire trainer enough times; we only use vegetable oil to create the smoke, but believe me, its down on hands and knees to find the exit. Can't see a thing.

You splitter: agree. Damned discourteous to a fellow professional too.

Just a 'dumb thought'
 

But a serious Q.
If you have boarded on time, with, say a 30 min delay to push due ATC. Do the safety brief, identify the typical 'no baggage paper reading frequent flyer' located in the typical seat that blocks useable exits through panic. Watch them ignore the saftey brief for their survival. File an ASR and offload them. It will achieve nothing in a short time, but when 10-20 gold card holders see it, maybe it will start to cascade through the ranks.
How many have the 'I've flown this route 200 times before brigade' got the overwing? can you rely on them?

I know, I am in the industry, I hate flying (believe it or not, as a groundie). From jumpseat,in the good old days, to RHS single crew, in the even better days, 'I need to brief you on the following in the event of an emergencey' got the ears to prick up.

But then as staff, no matter where I sat, a crewmember could lean over and say, 'left engine fire, what would you do'

Sorry, but then they pay no attention to the security Q's at checkin, heard 'em all before. Hell if not themselves, they got a good lawer and company insurence to boot.........................




Just do your best, and look after No1

When I had a full-time career in banking I used to fly a fair amount around Europe and the USA. I also flew a lot by air for weekends away and vacations - nowadays I only make a few flights a year.

I always have and always will pay attention to both the safety briefing and the safety card ... (I am also one who DOES check fire exits upon arrival at a hotel).

Reality is? However well briefed I am and aware of what might happen I have to hope that I will cope OK in an emergency - my paying attention to briefings etc is my way of trying to minimise my panic if/when an emergency arises ... kind of "saturation learning" you might say.

I have just had a bright idea. Although there is likely to always be a last minute "runner" pax on to a flight, the vast majority of pax arrive at the gate in appropriate time and sit, kicking heels, for quite some time. For a relatively small amount of ££/$$ why don't airports install wide-screens in departure lounges with a video/DVD connection so airlines could run a continuous 10-min or so safety briefing, including fun stuff about flying, views out of flight deck etc ... nowadays pax will never have the privilege of visiting the flight deck (I count myself extremely fortunate to have done so round Europe/USA) ... Even if folks chose to read books etc during the broadcast in the Departure Lounge there is still the subliminal/residual effect. This wouldn't replace the on-board safety briefing.

What do you think?

:ok:

Actually brockenspectre, that's not a bad idea...

VFE and hotels
 

VFE;

Do you know the highest floor in any U.S Hotel the fire department can reach in the event of a problem? The answer is 7. If you're on 8 or above you're on your own.

Of course, most of the larger hotels use floors 2 through 6 for conference facilities, ballrooms, offices etc. So you're basically out of luck in the event of a real emergency.

Newarksmells

a couple of thoughts :

1. FA's do themselves no favours in this department, by handing out newspapers immediately prior to the safety briefing!!! I have never understood why they do this - I mean, how can they expect pax to pay attention to a safety briefing, when they have just handed them a newspaper ?

also

2. I travel around 25-30 times per year on CRJ-700's. I always try to get the overwing exit seat (and 99% of the time succeed). The overwing exit on a CRJ (for those that may not know) is a removable door. It has a flap which folds down, then a pull handle which releases the door. The door then pivots inwards on the lower edge, before becoming completely detatched. It is then necessary to turn the door sideways, and throw it out through the hole (preferably towards the front of the wing, so the exit isn't blocked). It is then necessary to pull the hand-line out of a little door by the side of the seat, and clip it onto a yellow hook on the wing.

As you can see, there is a lot to do, and as the pax in the exit seat, it is entirely your responsibility to do all this. In order to make sure you know what you're doing, the FA's brief you before each flight. HOWEVER, the standard of these briefings varies immensely.

I have had everything ranging from totally inadequate 10-second "just pull this handle here" brief's to the excellent 2-minute thorough explanation.

I agree that it is really annoying to see arrogant pax ignoring the safety briefing (and I, out of respect, never ignore the briefing, no matter how many times I have heared it before), but the cabin crew should also try harder.

:-)

P.S. Once saw someone shout "pay attention, you arrogant b*st*rd" to someone he saw ignoring a safety brief !!

I would just like to add that I have flown with easyJet a few times, and their crews win hands down for their safety brief. I have been on several flights where they will stop the demo and go up to a pax and explain to them that they need to listen. On three occasions I have seen them stop the demo and move people from the exit area as they were not paying attention to the briefing. This I find Incredible. Takes a lot of guts to make someone move while everyone is watching, and makes people think. Once I have seen 2 pax offloaded as they became arrogant and aggressive towards the crew mwmber as they were disturbed during their little chat while the demo was on. Keep it up guys, maybe other airline crews will catch on and do the same thing!

Very good news, jettesen.

Can I urge whoever is easyJet's FSO nowadays to pass on how they brought this into effect to pass on the info at the next UKFSC meeting?

Something that everyone else could well copy.

New Airplanes, New Type Exits!
 

And not to forget that the newer 737s (NG types) have overwing emergency exits that are hinged at the top and fold out and up, instead of the old plugs that are pulled inside, as on the 737-200s. A surprise discovery that I had made recently when I was travelling as a pax and seated beside one. :ooh:

Great comment GLUEBALL ! Every aircraft is different in someway. Sometimes not that obvious. This is a classic example of why people should listen and read the safety guides!

Virgin used to have the voice of the great Leslie Phillips doing their little cartoon announcement. I always got the feeling that people appeared to pay mpre attention to that than a crew member although quite how much help the cartoon would be in an evacuation, I am not sure.) Last trip I made with them, it was now Vic Reeves I believe

I often position on BA shuttles and I've heard many different PAs to try and get the audiences attention. The one that is most memorable went something like this:

Ladies and Gentlemen, I would ask that you pay attention to the cabin crew's demonstration especially as it is for your safey. I'm sure your newspapers and magazines are very interesting but they won't help you when you arrive at the door during an evacuation!

Eventually, I imagine all passengers will have to fill out a validation because as silly as it sounds it may have been or certainly will be an issue for litigation in the future.

The crew have a legal obligation to ensure that pax are made aware and surely there is a legal onus on the CC, the fact that people choose not to listen or fail to comprehend is not relevant in todays 'Health and Safety' and litigation mad mode.

Reading through the thread all of us are aware that most of what is contained is a snapshot of what takes place. Many people that do listen probably do not understand what takes place irrespective of what the Captain says. CC often go thru the exercise with a less than enthusiastic outlook which may also be detected by the pax.

Simply there is no answer it is a little like car / driving safety. If you take out your user manual it will tell you to check up to 25 + items every time you go out, I know no-one that does this and many drivers some with the best cars are probably the whorst having little knowledge of where when and how to do these things.

From pax perspective that seems to be how they view or otherwise the safety drills.

I shall retire soon. On my last few flights I intend saying to the passengers precisely what I have been wanting to say for years: "This is simple Darwinian selction folks. You listen, you live. You ignore it, you die. Thank you for your attention."

Something new has happened to me now a few times while flying a German IT/LoCo carrier to the UK which I use approx. all 2 weeks:

When having a seat at the overwing exit I was personallyadressed by the F/A after the brief whether I knew how to work the exit.

Funny though, seems not to be official as this happened maybe 4-5 times out of the last 15-20 flights.

Not a bad idea - why not do so as a standard operating procedure?

Agree Kingair,

Why not take it one stage further and hand out the overwing instruction cards and say that you will return in 5 mins to ask a question about the exit to make sure they fully understand. I'm sure many will then pay particular attention to whats written on the card. If they can't answer the question then they get moved to a non-emergency exit seat.

My main beef is those regular travellers who think they know it all. Even if you do, PLEASE PLEASE pay attention. Its amazing to watch the affect that a newspaper or a sleeping passenger has on the attention of the surrounding passengers. They subconsciously think 'well if they aren't paying attention then I don't need to either'. For those regular flyers that do know the exits and emergency procedures; it won't help you if the other people around you don't know what to do and end up blocking your path. In an accident we all know time is critical. Two seconds could cost you your life. Now tell me your happy that others around you aren't paying attention during the briefing!

How sure are you that passengers in your vicinity know where and what they should do in an emergency?

Without wishing to look like an enemy of safety, I have a few points that I have noticed, that might throw a new angle on it.

1. Good rules of instruction - Explanation, Demonstration, Imitation. Safety briefs are only, necessarily, 2/3 of this equation and knowing roughly where a lifejacket is and how to put it on, is quite different from finding it and doing it, especially in stress.

2. Army saying - No plan survives first contact with the enemy - In a survivable crash, if the CC are out of action, someone else will have to have a go at the doors, for example, perhaps the briefing needs to be extended ? How will pax with crew incapacitated know when it is safe or not to open a door due to fire, water etc. In an emergency situation you are relying on good old fashioned common sense, and leadership showing out from some.

What I am trying to indicate is potentially how little complete application the safety brief may have in serious incidents where there can be hundreds of factors affecting life or death, and not many of them within control of the CC, however well trained.

While the brief itself does not do any harm, it is the psychological impact of seeing an interested, calm and professional crew demonstrating that they have things under control, that will be in forefront of frightened pax minds during an incident. Perhaps the brief should indicate the need to stay calm, consider options and co-operate with other pax and crew as the most important contributory point to survival.

One more point, some years ago I was on a 767 out of Taipei that after rotation had a loud bang, smoke and loss of power on the right engine. The CC went on the intercom (to the cockpit !!), turned white as a sheet, put the intercom down and then made her straps very tight, I could feel the panick flow amongst the pax immediately. It is the duty of crew to be reassuring and calm to pax (right to the end if necessary, if that does not seem too morbid).

That appearance of reassurance and calm starts from the welcome at the door, and is NOT served by egotistical bleating "if you don't listen to me I will not save you" or easyjets confrontational approach.

Psychology, empathy, common sense please:ok: