"3. No interview or flight test to access suitability. If you're good enough to fly for BACX, you're good enough to fly for mainline. "

Couldn't agree more, but you forgot to mention the other side of that coin:

4. If you've ever been rejected from BA / failed the application procedure - then no job.

BACE are a cheap option for BA, crew costs are probably half that of mainline BA, our aircraft are a lot more efficient on the routes allocated to us by BA. So all that together, equates to profit instead of loss on routes out of Manchester and Brum. I for one am not boasting about being cheap,I would like to enjoy an increase in pay and better conditions to go with the huge increase in workload I am now expected to put up with.But that isn`t going to happen,not as long as I stay with this company. The future that I thought I had planned out with this company has gone.It has been replaced by a vague non descript set of ideals handed out by a management team who operate behind the fastest set of smoking mirrors I have ever seen.No one will give a straight answer to a straight question,everything is subject to change.
As far as I can see only basic laws of economics will improve our lot (and I mean all of us within the BA group ),Supply and Demand. As soon as confidence grows within the airlines and recruitment starts in earnest,then will our lot get better.Until then lets all bend over and receive in the best tradition of exploitation.

Ref CFE effoh's getting commands on the RJ in BHX or MAN. I'm and RJ fo with hours for a command and there is no such plan. The only command promotions are on the ATR which is remaining a mainline type and is going to those who bid for it. CFE doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for over a year so how exactly you think it is promoting us is a bit beyond me. And to be honest so what if they were? They are our aircraft, if your 145's come to gatwick to replace the ATR i would imagine you would expect to crew them if you wanted???

One final suggestion, rather than listening to ill informed crew room rumours, why dont you wander accross the tarmac in MAN/BHX/AMS/FRA/EDI/ABZ etc and come and talk to us. We were in a similar position to BACE a couple of years ago, dont forget.

PS there was no testing for us to join BA, all franchises have been auditted for years. I guess the first sim check has some paperwork attached to it but no difference noted.

There will be winners and losers here, i very definately lost out on an RJ command for a good few years, but i can expect to be flying something big to somewhere sunny within a couple of years. Swings and roundabouts.

Hotel Mode,

Look forward to flying with you sometime in the future. Anyone in BA since the Dan-Air merger(even Cali days) has lost out somewhere given our recent upheavals, B-Scales, etc. I have been on the wrong side of a slope for near 8years because of joining 2weeks later than my mates. There are loads of CApt's below my Seniority and good luck to them. The poor buggars joining now are even going to lose their FS Pensions.

All we can do is try to minimise the damage in the future by learning from the past. In some situations, someone is bound to lose, be worse off, or not better off than others(probably my Seniority again, in the coming Pay Restructuring)but as long as every attempt is made to minimise damage, who can object. Only if the situation is ignored completely is their a problem.

All fleets(including franchises) are audited by the same Quality Control Team under John Mimpriss, I believe. The 747/777 fleet are currently in their audit period. It is to spot anomalies that might develop in Safety if fleets where to remain Independant for years. Why not learn from things that have been spotted on other fleets and vice versa. I imagine the franchises are even more closely monitored(rightly or wrongly)because they have been outside the main recruitment/training. BA knows that a photo in the paper showing a burnt tail fin remains, lying in a field in BA colours doesn't matter whether it's a franchise or not. They would be up for serious litigation however if they couldn't prove they had a serious input to check the Safety Level of Franchises in the event of a Incident.

I don't deny that in BA there are a lot of guys who selfishly look after themselves regardless of the effects on others, but they are in the minority in reality and the BALPA team just coming into power are much more spread out across all the ranks/outfits(ex-CFE, ex-RAF, etc) and aware of the shortfalls in the Past. Scope is not a BA-Pilot stealth Plan to takeover BACX jobs or anyone elses. As I said, there are more BA Pilots being displaced, (more than Seniority alone would dictate) as a result of recent takeovers than CFE, BRAL Pilots combined. A lot of BA SFO's are not getting their 737/757/767 Commands this year and probably the next, and some BA Pilots/CAPT's are being forced out of Manchester after decades of service there. So it is hard to argue that BA Pilots haven't been more than accomodating than the stance they could have take given their #'s and weight.

Scope is about protecting all our jobs in the future and without it we would have no leg to stand on come any future Negotiations. I am not a blind Pro-BALPA Pilot as most who have read some of my other posts Know. I read the fine print off agreements and then make up my own mind. But this time Scope is a must for all of us, including those outside the BA umbrella.

Try to take a balanced view to the wider implications that Scope means for All UK Pilots. If in doubt, ask guys like Hotel Mode who have only just come through the Welcome grinder.

I'm getting very confused with all these acronyms in both this thread and the GB Pilots to join BA? one.

Have I decoded the following correctly?

BACC (British Airways Company Council, BALPA)
CC (Company Council, BALPA)

BA Mainline (British Airways Plc Pilots)
BAR (British Airways Regional, subdivision of BA mainline, does this still exist?)
EOG (European Operation at Gatwick, subdivision of BA mainline, now renamed SHAG)
SHAG (ShortHaul Operations at Gatwick, subdivision of BA mainline)

CFE (City Flyer Express, now absorbed into BA Mainline)

Brymon (Brymon Airways, now amalgamated into British Airways CitiExpress)
Manx (Manx Airlines, now amalgamated into British Airways CitiExpress)
BRAL (British Regional Airlines, now amalgamated into British Airways CitiExpress)

BACE, BACX, BACXe. Are these all acronyms for "British Airways CitiExpress"?



Sledge talks of the "BA group" but this keeps changing so much, I keep losing track of who is in it these days. Is the following correct?


British Airways Plc (Mainline Pilots) Operating to UK, Europe & World Wide (Concorde, Boeing 747-400, Boeing 777-200, Airbus A319, Airbus A320, Boeing 737-300, Boeing 737-400, Boeing 737-500, Boeing 757-200, Boeing 767-300).


BA CitiExpress is a wholly owned subsidiary of British Airways which operates within the UK and Europe from a number of UK regional airports. Brymon Airways, British Regional Airlines and Manx Airlines have been combined to form BA CitiExpress. It is also the intention to integrate the sister subsidiary, British Airways Regional with BA CitiExpress later in the year. The combination of the four regional operations into one combined unit, operating as part of British Airways, will make it the largest regional airline in Europe with 79 aircraft serving 49 destinations. (BAe 146 RJ-100, ATP, DASH 8-300, Embraer 145, Jetstream 41).


Franchise Carriers, Independent Airlines using the 'British Airways' name, livery and flight code, and inside the aircraft British Airways cabin interior and staff uniforms.

Within the UK

British Mediterranean Airways Ltd. (BMED) Based at London Heathrow Terminal 4, operating to 12 destinations in the Middle East, Africa and Central Asia. (Airbus A320, Airbus A321)

GB Airways Ltd. (GB) Based at London Gatwick operating flights to the southern Mediterranean, including France, Gibraltar, Portugal, Spain and Northern Africa. (Boeing 737-400, Boeing 737-300, Airbus A320-232, Airbus A321-231)

Loganair Ltd. Based in Glasgow operating an extensive internal Scottish network, as well as flights to Ireland. (Shorts 360, SAAB 340B, B-N Islander, DH 6 Twin Otter)

Maersk Air UK Ltd. Based at Birmingham International Airport operating services to Belfast International, Amsterdam, Berlin, Bordeaux, Copenhagen, Gothenburg, Lyon, Milan, Nice, Stockholm, Stuttgart, Toulouse and Vienna. (Boeing 737-500, Canadair R.Jet CRJ200/CRJ700)

Outside the UK

Sun-Air of Scandinavia A/S. Based in Billund, Denmark operating flights within Denmark as well as European routes to destinations including Stockholm, Gothenburg, Oslo, Stavanger, Berlin and Manchester. (Jetstream 31, Jetstream 41, BAE ATP)

Comair (South Africa) Ltd. Based in Johannesburg, operating to destinations in Southern Africa including Cape Town, Durban, Port Elizabeth, Harare, Lusaka, Victoria Falls and Windhoek. (Boeing 737-200, Boeing 727)

Regional Air (Kenya). Based in Nairobi operating services to Eritrea, Sudan, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Djibouti and Mombasa. (Boeing 737-200)

Zambian Air Services. Based in Lusaka operating routes to Johannesburg. (Operated in conjunction with Comair South Africa)


Oneworld Alliance Carriers, Independent Airlines code sharing with British Airways but maintaining a their own separate identities and brand.

Aer Lingus, American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Finnair, Iberia, LanChile, Qantas.



Which airports are BA CitiExpress based at?

Where does "Atlas Air" fit into the above?

Mb

I honestly think that some of you BA boys are so inflated with your own self importance that you genuinely believe that if you repeat the self justifying drivel about the benefits of Scope to BACX etc often enough then we will believe it.

Lets be quite clear.

Scope is not about a two way process, it is about protecting one group of workers at the expense of another.

It is about greed.

It is about ensuring that a group who are inefficient and unprofitable sustain terms and conditions for themselves by attaching themselves as parasites to the backs of a lower cost subsidiary.

Scope is about the worst form of industrial protectionsim. History is riddled with examples of how workers in dying industries have tried to buck market forces and have ended up in the dust themselves.

Face it guys! you belong to a bygone era. The industry has moved on from where you would like it to be.
We live in a new world where the likes Of Mike O' Leary rule. None of us like that but look at the evidence (Ryanair and its shareholders are laughing all the way to the bank)

The conduct of BACC in holding BACX displaced pilots hostage to their broader industrial and political ambitions is in the process of backfiring.

I for one am very glad that at such an early stage of the negotiation process BACX pilots have been able to experience at first hand exactly how the advocates of Scope behave. As a result I am absolutely certain the the whole stupid exploitative and irrelevant idea will go absolutely no where.

"...you BA boys are so inflated with your own self importance that you genuinely believe that if you repeat the self justifying drivel about the benefits of Scope to BACX etc often enough then we will believe it."

Not at all. I don't pretend that Scope is good for you guys in the slightest, but I'm not interested in your career. You have your CC to fight for you, and good luck. Our CC fights for US, OUR jobs and our T and Cs. Sorry to be harsh, but I'm not giving up benefits so Firemen, Burger flippers, Doctors or Solicitors can live a better life. Why should we give up benefits so you can have a better time? You're not BA. You may think you are 'cos you 'wear the clothes', but you're not. We don't give up things for Ryanair or EasyJet - so why you?

I cant believe this garbage from some of the BACE guys, i know for a fact its not the majority because i have spent several pleasant evenings down route with many of you. Many in CFE thought BA pilots were underworked and overpaid. Not a bit of it, we are substantially more efficient now than we were, get more days off sure, but i compared last august roster with this and i did 30% more flying, 20% more duty hours and 2 more days off. In fact i was very close to the monthly duty limit. My pay is 15% higher than last year, so pound per hour i'm cheaper now than i was a year ago. Thats efficient. I'm sick of people spouting off about things they know nothing about. Thats from BA as well as BACE.

The inefficient bit of BA is Management, Ground services and Cabin Services, if this brings the company down, BACE crews will have the same lack of jobs that BA crews will. Its your management too and we should at least pull in the same direction.

I thought the reasonable solution was that BA pilots have the right to fly the RJ's, and BACE pilots opting to go onto it join the BA seniority list and get T+C's on converting to a mainline type. Doesnt cost BA anything, those at BACE, and there will be plenty, who want to get into BA can join the RJ. Those that dont can carry on flying the Embraer etc for ever. I dont see any losers there. The franchise issue is a nightmare and i personally dont think i have any right to jump into a GB command etc.

And another thing...... Stop talking about pompous BA pilots, its not a disease, from what i've seen in the last 6 months the BA crowd are the same as the rest of us. Sure there are pompous a****, but they are in every company, and most of them post on here. But there is no more or less in BA than there was in CFE and no doubt BACE. Its just a big company so they make more noise. Just dont start me on pompous cabin crew.

If "your" precious RJs and "your" precious routes are so vital to you then why don't you just get on and fly them yourselves in BA Mainline...??

Oh I forgot......

You don't want to fly them because it is beneath your dignity to fly such an apology for a little aeroplane (heaven forbid a 145-you'd rather take a train) and, of course, you can't make any money flying around with thirty passengers in the back of an Airbus.

So you'll just spoil it for those of us who can anyway by an ill-conceived abomination called "Scope".....which ensures that you win all ways ....

The BA CC dog in a manger attitude is there for everyone to see.

Nice Guys....

For goodness sake tinytim get a grip on reality. Half the BA guys responding here actually do fly the RJ and we like it. They are not our routes they are BAR routes and they made sacrifices to keep them a few years back, all for nothing. Whatever way you play it you are gaining 12 airframes, BAR are losing 12. So more opportunities for BACE pilots. Dont know where you are based but try this one. In 2 years time BA buys Air Wales and its ATR's. They then decide that a mixed fleet in Aberdeen is a bad idea, and decide to standardise on the ATR to be flown by ex Air wales pilots on lower terms and conditions and all ABZ crews will be moved elsewhere. Would you not expect your CC to try and protect the jobs and T+C's at ABZ, in order to prevent the same thing happening at other larger bases, Manch etc. It is not unreasonable for the BACC to protect the work of BA pilots, thats what they are there for. I still dont understand what the problem is when you are gaining work.

I think you'll find there are quite a lot of people who want to fly the RJ and are bidding for it, so you'd best wind your neck in because they'll be your Captain soon. Anyway, I'm going to heed the previous warning by one of your colleagues about the way you poison threads with your vapid drivel, so I'm going to ignore your posts and I suggest all other readers, regardless of employer, do exactly the same.

Hotel Mode...Ever heard of market forces??? You can't buck the market. However much you bury your head in a bucket, they won't go away.

If the free market says you are only worth two and sixpence an hour then there is no point in staring at a gold-framed mirror looking at the reflection of a pilot who thinks he's worth two and ten and hour. You, my friend, need to take the reality check.

H.S. I know that you can't resist a good wind up....However I gather only 14 of your guys bid for the RJ...So where does that leave your argument?

Oh of course..... you are not prepared to respond to my drivel. Perhaps one of your mates on the CC will.

Again congratulations on the duff gen Tinytim. 27 BAR pilots have bid for the RJ, and the bid for current RJ Gatwick pilots only closed on friday so how you know the result before BA is amazing. But i think you would be looking at at least another 20. Since noone else in BA has been given the chance to bid for it, not bad.

Market forces have nothing to do with it. Market forces would be if BA closed routes that easyjet flew. BA just want to wash their hands of everything outside fortress heathrow. They arent worried about how much they pay the pilots or they wouldn't have come up with the compensation for mainline pilots on the Rj. I think they are just chuffed to bits that your CC has failed to improve your T+C's on the RJ to a higher level. I cant believe you are proud of being the worst paid 110 seater pilots in Europe, that used to be us, its nothing to be proud of.

I feel sorry for the displaced in BACE, and believe me i'm not especially happy about the RJ being used as BALPA's hostage to scope, because believe it or not 6 days in a hotel at the NEC 3 times a month hadn't been in my plans for the next year

Thanks HM! the more you guys prickle at my provocative postings.... the more you give away just where you are really coming from!!

Your candid admission that our displaced guys are being held hostage by you lot is refreshingly honest and is exactly why we depricate so much this trotters-in-the-trough attitude of you and your colleagues and do not want any part of some fudged up arrangement to keep you in a postion which the market would otherwise deny you.

Scope is dead in the water and more of our lot are realising it daily largely thanks to the attitudes which are so excellently portrayed here by those who espouse and advocate it.

Have just read all these postings about scope and am thoroughly depressed by the attitudes expressed.
I flew in the regions for many years and enjoyed every minute of it but times change and I now fly out of LHR on longhaul.
The Balpa guys will do their best for all.
The longterm interests of all pilots within the BA group will be best served by unity not the devisive behaviour espoused here by pilots who are only interested in preserving their own little patch.
Over the years I have witnessed cosy little deals done in BHX, MAN, GLA etc to preserve the wishes of a few to live and work in those places. I don't believe that the longterm interests of pilots were always well served by these deals.
Times change, CityFlyer etc will disappear. You must move on and grow up. Don't attack BA mainline pilots on costs etc. I believe Balpa has proved tha BA has just about the cheapest and most efficient group of pilots in the world.
Quite frankly we need to improve conditions etc not fight amongst ourselves. If you don't want to be part of a unified pilot group in BA could you please leave and go somewhere else. We have enough problems with BA management we need your help to move forward.
Regards an ex regional pilot now longhaul

As they say here in the US:

"SCOPE is NOT a mouthwash!"

Management WANTS us to be divided on this issue; and, they want ALL short-haul, hub-and-spoke flying done by "Regional" airlines that code-share ith the mainline carrier that employ pilots at 40% of the wage scale of the mainline pilots.

Management is our enemy here, NOT each other.
https://image.jetnet.aa.com/imageser...ure_ribbon.jpg

Wake up and smell the coffee.
 

Let's agree a few basic points. Let's use some common sense.

1. Not all BA pilots are selfish tossers. Some, but not many.

2. Not all BACE pilots are selfish tossers. As above.

3. Change is inevitable.

4. BA management really is pants.

5. The most important pilot group to protect is US, the current BA Group pilot workforce, whether it be BA or BACE.

6. If we are divided, we are that much easier to shaft.

In conclusion, considering item 3) CHANGE, perhaps we should pay attention to item 5) OUR PRESENT & FUTURE.
In an ideal world, we should be able to guarantee our current jobs and pay structure for future generations. This world is far from ideal, so, let's ALL be a bit selfish/realistic. FSS has shafted a number of BA Regional guys, but also a number of BACE guys. I know the relocation package even offered by BACE is far better than the previous BRAL model, and I would guess that the mainline one is even better still, by several orders of magnitude.
My main point is that though NONE of these guys wanted to move, they still have a job. I would suggest that the gradual usage of BACE and smaller aeroplanes on supposedly marginal routes may cause a bit more dislocation, but not much because there isn't actually much left. Taken further then, assume BACE do achieve the RJ, and for exercise, more medium types, 737, Bus etc.
Being realistic:cool: as long as no existing pilot's Ts and Cs were diluted because of it, where is the problem really? As long as no-one loses either their jobs or their current contract, the only loser is any future joiner. If that group thinks the Company is poorly remunerated, then they won't join, so conditions etc will need to improve. We all know that eventually the lower paid group will negotiate their way up to the higher paid group - ok who could object to that (except the management), seniority is a problem, but numbers have to rule there (I had to swalow hard for that, but it is really an industry norm).
Difficult though I accept it is to believe, not all by far BACE even want to join mainline, and given age groups and demography, would prefer to stay on their weenyjets and out in the regions than move to a RHS on a widebodything again and start again. BA have acknowledged this with the type freeze conditions given to ecx CFE. Equally, our younger BACE people will quite rightly probably jump at the chance to go and fly a scroggs wonderjet.
Pensions - well, we all signed up to what we currently have. I suggest we should stick together protecting THAT at all costs, rather than argue over the rights of future employees.

I know, I know. People will say if you accept a cut for ANYONE, then another and another will follow until you are stuffed. But if you look at Cathay, they seem to be still attracting people with B scales, C scales and yet each existing scale (and more importantly, the people on it) has not been affected by the introduction of a lower one.

I can see this is a selfish view. I suggest it is not as selfish as some, because it actually disadvantages no-one except the potential new joins; and if that package goes down too far, recruitment will just cease. I would just like to hear any reasoned argument as to why it is better to deliberately try and adversely and hurtfully affect current members of the BA group to the benefit of people who have not yet even filled in an application form. I know the instant reply is that if we give the Company an inch, they will stuff it in a foot or so - but how much better and deeper would we be able to draw a line in the sand reference CURRENT and FUTURE Ts and Cs for EXISTING workforce if we are all acting together? One thing is for sure, as long as BA and BACE, and probably GB all think the other is out to get them, the management will always win. It would be folly for BACC to assume they can maintain the attitude displayed by some on here, and win just because they are the biggest component. That has not actually proved to have done you much good over the last ten years or so, now has it?
Similarly, while it is probably true to say that management is in fear of industrial action:

1. Who among us could really afford a strike, knowing in these times the Company could well go under, to the sound of Irish and Orange cheers.

2. If it REALLY came down to it, apart from number of pp24 long haul guys with their investment portfolios and crystallised pensions, who would actually do it anyway. We ain't turkeys, and Christmas is looming!

Meaning to have just turned this scope debate into a slightly more logical and inclusive, UNIFIED direction........;)

Are you sure you're not management Corelli? Anybody who joined BA in the last 7 years has joined on relatively inferior pay. These people now make up almost half of all flight crew. Are we any closer to forcing pay up for everybody? Not really. Its all well and good saying 'I'm alright Jack, let the newbies suffer', but when they're in the majority you'll need their support when the company turns its greedy eye on you. If management have their way the next intake of BA pilots won't have a final salary pension scheme, nor I suspect will the nexy intake of BACE pilots. Do you think they'll support you when the company tries to end a pension scheme they don't even belong to, or will you reap what you sow? If you think theres a finite point where people will cease to fly because the pay is too poor then you've been in the industry too long. Cast a glance over some of the Wannabees sites sometimes and occasionally you'll find people willing to work for nothing. After all if they're prepared to go £50k in debt to get the licence what difference does another £15K make to support your first pay free year?

Your point is that BA pilots should not hurt current members of the BA group to protect people who haven't even joined. Well the current RJ deal already hurts members of the BA group, the BA pilots. Yes, they can move to LHR, but the job is about quality of life, not just money. By all means put the right size aircraft on the route, but the RJ is only 16 seats smaller than a 319 and putting cheaper pilots on it is not going to make the operation profitable any more than putting air taxi pilots on your ERJs. You assume the current deal is benefit neutral to BA pilots. I think your assumption is wrong and the deal is to the detriment of BA pilots on the whole. To use your argument, why should we as BA pilots sign a deal that doesn't benefit us in order to support a group of pilots who haven't joined BA but seem determined to undermine us?

As I understand your argument, you think BA, BACE, GB etc pilots should stand together against management, but also that BACE should take over the RJ fleet and then maybe eventually the whole of short haul too? Leaving BA mainline as a long haul only fleet perhaps? Well wheres the benefit in that for me? Experience has shown that you've more chance of getting blood out of a stone than negotiating B or C scale salaries up, so that leaves me on my B scale facing either a life in longhaul or a return to short haul on condition of accepting a C scale BACE salary, and thats not a road I wish to go down. Any encroachment by BACE into mainline work is a loss of opportunity for me, if not a loss of cash. If a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere, then so long as we are represented by different BALPA CCs the only place we in BA can draw it is under our seniority list. If BACE want to join BA, as some may, then lets work on a system where they join our seniority list on mainline pay. In conjunction the BACE CC can work on improving pay within BACE. Transferring work from BA mainline T & Cs to BACE T & Cs is not a solution or an acceptable course of action to us. We are competing against a lot of other carriers, both high fares and low fares, but don't forget that Lufthansa, KLM, Air France, Easyjet and Go all pay their pilots more than the BA B-scale. Introducing a C scale into the equation is not going to make a jot of difference to our profitability.

:( Well Mr Solo, you certainly don't mess about, at least we know exactly where we stand in the view of BACC.
I notice you didn't address the point about strike action. I suppose we at BACX are in a win/win situation.

Option 1. Management work out a deal with you whereby we operate regional routes on RJs and then bigger aircraft, operating in some cases with mainline guys, and in some with just ourselves.

Option 2. BACC call a strike, and it isn't supported fully enough either for BALPA to agree it, or if they do, there are enough pilots who ignore it to make it just a farce. Management win, and red faced BACC have to eat some serious crow - also losing all BALPA credibility for the foreseeable future.

Option 3. BACC call a strike. It is supported, BA looks like folding, but Marshall/Eddington strike a deal with BACC. This deal canot possibly be as much as you appear to want, so everyone who has struck or not is actually left disadvantaged/unhappy/resentful - except for the BACX pilots, who now inherit more and more routes as the (new) management set up deals to ensure this cannot happen again.

My money is on some sort of option 2. I just don't think you are in the real world meboy.

Hand Solo

when CityFlyer were bought out by BA, your guys fought hard to ensure that the ex-CFE pilots had their terms and conditions IMPROVED to those at EOG. We don't see that happening this time, now do we?

Perhaps rather than using scope as a big stick to beat us not-so-worthy types into submission, why don't your company council fight to have our terms and conditions fully integrated. Thereby we can actually stand up to management on all issues together and speak with one voice as it were? This would knock on the head the argument that we are stealing your routes, aircraft and thus opportunities. Indeed the opposite would actually be true. Our younger guys who want to fly the scroggs wonderjet can go in that direction, your guys who want to stay in the regions will not have to have any sweetners added into their paypackets as there isn't any loss of income, and hopefully we'll see no more of "them and us" arguing.

Unfortunately, that will require BACC to stop some of their underhand 'negotiating' techniques when dealing with BACE CC. Up until now, they have been hiding facts or at times even being blatantly deceptive to the point of telling 'untruths'!

It seems to me that BACE can be considered part of BA when it suits (freeze on recruitment to help BA's budget, no profit share paid out even though nearly £10m profit achieved by us... this was actually swallowed up in BA losses) or we aren't BA when it comes to scope, etc. MAKE UP YOUR BL**DY MINDS!!!:mad:

As for the other posting regarding pensions, our new guys have already been denied access to our final salary scheme by our new BA management! Our existing scheme may itself be under threat! So it seems to me that a unified voice would be to the benefit of the WHOLE pilot workforce whether scum like us in BACE or gods from mainline.

Rant over!

I think they fought for us to be on equal T+C's because we were joining the mainline seniority list. I think we would all love for BACE pilots to join the seniority list and get BA terms and conditions because then we'll all be pulling the same way.... But BA arent that stupid.

A few pages back, Airage, was considering the problems for BA should one of the f BA franchise aircraft end up with a serious incident and the negative impact of pictures of a BA coloured tail. There is another viewpoint.
People at GB are very concerned about such an incident. The chances of it happening with a BA mainline aircraft are approx 20+ times more than with a GB aircraft: (250 aircraft in BA, 11 aircraft in GB). The public watching tele won't appreciate the differences in the two separate companies. So, problems that eminate from BA mainline can affect GB in a very big way.
In a similar vein - once the public get wind of the fact that they can't guarantee particular flights because of impending militancy, bookings will plummet, just like they did a few years ago when BA cabin crew took strike action. This matters to the small airlines and their staff, because they know that it is the passengers that ultimately pay the wages and keep things going. I'm not convinced that the vocal element in BA flight crew have taken this obvious fact on board. The hostile element in BA, make many in GB very nervous about Scope. Why swap a regime of good Balpa versus Company industrial relations for a hot bed of problems which are unlikely to ever be resolved.?

Hurrah for common sense.
 

Rhythm Method.

May I just say that you have made more sense than most, and I liked your post. I note that BACC members/supporters like airrage and Hand Solo have not replied to it.
It is a pity that BA are represented by such d1ckheads, because I refuse to believe that your average BA line guy is like that. The trouble is, from all I have heard, they ARE fairly representative of the BACC.
Oh well, it has been bad enough being fu#ked over by our management, it hurts a bit more being done by other pilots.

Now, about my RJ course..........

Well said, well said. Don't expect a quick reply from dear old airrage anyway. Like many mainliners, he has so much time off he runs a Taxi Company in his spare time! If he succeeds in achieving the strike he encourages so much, then he'll be depending on the taxi a bit more than at present I think!:eek:

Latest Data
 

Recent trip over the water to the sim, courtesy of long haul, spoke with some other BA positioning crew. Longhaul view seems to be contrary to what has been posted here; they reckon a lot of their profitability is diverted to the feeder side of the business - that is, existing BA mainline shorthaul.
Guys wished us luck, and thought that the future of the entire Company probably lay in a reversion to the BOAC / BEA type of setup, and that obviously BEA never had been, and could not be as profitable as the old BOAC model. Hence, clearly, something in the cost structure had to be changed. Interestingly, as the conversation progressed, I found we agreed on most things, including the fact that the lower PILOT cost base of BACE really made little difference to the whole thing. However, what DID make a difference was the BACE Company setup. Our management may have difficulty working out whether to raise the toilet lid sometimes, but they are overall mega costless compared to BA. So, (he reckoned) the takeover of shorthaul would effectively cause a huge huge cull in Waterside, and basically eventual prosperity for all.
And all this from a BALPA member in BA as well!!:D

The only problem that I can see is I don't believe Waterside mangement would ever allow themselves to be made redundant - that has always been the problem. Oh well, nice to see some common sense and to meet some REAL BA people instead of the Mr Angries who seem to delight in winding everyone up for kicks.
Maybe I WILL bid for longhaul after all!;)

Nice to see some sensible comments sometimes... Go for it, we're not all w****** in long haul. Just guys trying to earn a living.

So the future may be bright without being ORANGE????:eek: :eek: :eek:

I think I have already my views clear here for those who have been willing to actually read the Posts, so no need to rehash it again and again to those who seem to want to maintain a Divisive atitude to BA Pilots. If you re-read my original Posts you will not find divisive, abusive or vulgar posts which has been the resultant response from some. In fact a quick read of the last few pages by anyone outside either company might startle some into hearing the arrognace and abuse being shown against the BA guys despite the actual content of the BA guys posts.

Of the many issues I raised;
- BA Pilots are actually losing their jobs in the Regions not stealing others.
- how if BA Pilots were all bullies then the ex-CFE/BRAL, etc guys wouldn't have had nearly as easy a ride of it to date, especially with regards FSS job losses, lose of jobs in the regions and Grandfather rights. Being a massive majority meant 0 wishes of the joining few could have been crushed by one ballet of 3300 BA Bully Pilots if we had indeed been as described here by some.
- Scope protecting all our jobs from future non-UK labour
- how being in a large company(3500 Pilots) means that it works for the majority of Pilots(whether you were taken on by BA directly or TAKEN over, junior or senior, LH or SH)but it doesn't work for all of the Pilots all of the time. I have been at the short-end of the stick 4times in 8years already. It's not a BA Pilot Vs non-BA Pilot thing, so try not to take it so personal.
- Why are you guys not discussing this in the privacy of the Official BALPA Forum instead of airing this on a Public Forum ? Are a lot of the guys complaining about BALPA here actually even Members at all, is that why you chose this Forum ?

TINYtims unconstructive response was
"I honestly think that some of you BA boys are so inflated with your own self importance that you genuinely believe that if you repeat the self justifying drivel about the benefits of Scope to BACX etc often enough then we will believe it. "

Can anyone verify whether tinytim is actually a Pilot in any of the Companies being discussed or is just enjoying the thrill of getting anyone to respond to his Posts(unfortuantely I have some doubts).

I don't see any point in continuing to participate in any debate with people(not all people here, apologies to those who do not fit this description here) who aren't willing to debate the points logically but just shout rhetoric or abuse. tinytim if you can explain logically how becoming part of BA, and subsequently the Scope agreement is detrimental to your longterm future as a Pilot then I will be glad to hear it. I haven't heard anything yet that would justify all the abuse flying BA Pilots way when a lot of consideration of the concerns of the Pilots coming onboard (from Firms that have been TAKEN OVER)have often been dealt with before those of Pilots already in BA(ie. job losses in the regions).

Perhaps you would prefer BALPA to sign a LHR-only Scope agreement and we could let you guys in the Regions fight your own battles with European market forces and BA outsourcing Pilots to the lowest bidders, then where would you stand ? But doing that would make BA Pilots the selfish idiots you accuse us of being.

Want to be shot down in flames !!
 

As the BACE Moderator I can confirm that TT is a member of my flock. Care to continue??

BOSD

YEs, do you have any comments on the points raised old wise shepard ?

Airrage, Bluffy (Our forum moderator) has confirmed who I am and, like it or not, I am as entitled to my opinions as you are to your own.
Abuse me if you will, but that makes your arguments no stronger.

Unfortunately for those of your view, my opinions, however unpalatable to you and some of your colleagues, are entirely representative of the way many - if not the majority - think in BACX. (You might be very surprised and not a little worried if you knew who I actualy was.) At the end of the day our people will have a vote on whether or not to sign a Scope agreement and they need wooing not shouting at.

Your CC has now upped the anti by rejecting a reasoned proposal to get our (otherwise redundant) guys flying the RJ on secondment to you and is saying "Unless by the end of November you make substantial progress to signing a Scope agreement by the end of the year then you can forget any CX pilot flying any RJ.ever"

Id say that attitude has now blown the chances of an accomodation on Scope out of the water. BACC are acting like total demagogs, calling the shots and telling us what and when we are to agree something that many are not particularly interested in anyway.

The attitudes I project are as a result of the provocation by yourself and others which is ensuring that we do not have a future together.

Further, Balpa stands to be massively damaged since, largely as a result of its manipulation by your colleagues, it is not seen as impartial by many of our members who will vote with their feet if it does not take control of the situation and stop your CCs bully-boy tactics dead.

TinyTim,


"Airrage, Bluffy (Our forum moderator) has confirmed who I am and, like it or not, I am as entitled to my opinions as you are to your own.
Abuse me if you will, but that makes your arguments no stronger. "

You missed the point TT, You are the only one shouting abuse and foul language on this Forum, I haven't, have a re-read over the past few days. Another complete avoidance of any relevant point whatsoever, do you see why people don't bother contributing to this thread or stop out of sheer desperation. Why not start a 'poor abused me' thread if all you want to do is moan and ask for sympathy, I thought you guys wanted to discuss the Issue at hand ?

As for walking out of BALPA, what % of you guys are presently BALPA members ? No-one seems to want to answer this question whilst they curse about BALPA not looking after them.

It is BALPA's job to represent the will of the majority of it's Pilots. Given that you are outnumbered by about 10-1, seems to me they are doing that !

Airrage thank you so much for your reply.

Every time you post like that you hand another nail to me to bang into the lid of the coffin of Scope.

Luv ya!

Still no answers to relevant questions TT ?

So Airrage, let me get this straight.....

YOU tell us what we can and cannot fly.

YOU tell us the terms on which we can and cannot fly them

Now YOU tell me what is and is not relevant!!

I am running out of space for the nails my friend!!

Tinytim the only coffin your building is your own I'm afraid if you cannot see how Scope will protect all of us, including you now and in the future. Without Scope, BALPA will be unable to have any power in ANY Negotiations of YOUR Pay/T&C's/job security because without Scope BALPA will be unable to prevent BA from going out and hiring "tiny-tito" from the Ukraine just because he will work for less than tinytim from the UK.

I do not want to fly "your aircraft" or "your routes"(which is a debatabe point in the first place) and neither do 99.9% of any other BA Pilot who have more than 2years in BA. Scope is attempting to keep scheduled BA services flown by BA Pilots(of which you are now apart of). To argue against this premise is a bit suicidal or misguided I think.

I am not trying to sell Scope to you like some used Car Salesman, I am trying to explain to you that if you intend to have any sort of successful career in BA(longer than 1-2years) and wish to arm BALPA with the TOOLs necessary to Protect your rights and Pay then Scope is without question. The arguement against Scope I'm afraid is very weak in this context and fortunately the majority of BA Pilots will realise this.

I have no wish to shoot petty comments back and forth. I am not telling you what you can/cannot fly or the terms to do so. I am telling you that if you want to be able to protect what you can/cannot fly, and the terms for the forseeable future, then you will support Scope. You are right about something, a simple vote will decide this matter and I have no doubt which way that vote will go, so your dramatic coffin will not be needed and will not be seen as a credible threat by any of the other more than 3200 BA Pilots.

The sooner you accept that you are now part of BA so anything that is good for BA Pilots is now good for you as well the better. Change your name to Bigtim from Big Airways and broaden your viewpoint to include the whole BA Pilot workforce and the whole of your BA career.

Not off the thread/topic I promise;

I've been in BALPA most of my (aviation career) working life and I used to work for Dan Air.

Like most Dan Pilots, we paid our subs and were happy with the protection & representation BALPA gave us. Then in 1992 BA bought Dan Air from David James (for a fiver?). Most of us were down the road, some (737-300/400 pilots) kept jobs but on reduced, compared to Dan Air, terms and conditions in EOG/EGO.

I've experienced first hand how BA CC deals with and regards non BA mainline BALPA members and to suggest that BA CC are looking after BACX BALPA members interests in my experience is not true.

The whole Dan/BA episode led to the formation of the IPA when some of the previously staunch BALPA members realised who's interests BALPA were really looking after and I some years later compensation was paid to redundant ex Dan Air pilots after litigation, but I can't remember from who.

KJ - you are wrong yet again!
 

Kevin, (aka airrage) a lot of us know exactly who you are, and more importantly which questions you are not answering.

1. I note no reply to the entirely reasonable and logical argument put forward by Rhythm Method.

2. You don't actually comment on the points put forward by Tinytim, all you do is tell him how wrong he is.

3. You KNOW what he says about scope is correct, accurate and current, but you are too arrogant (or maybe honest) to even deny it. You just continue to bluster.

Finally, do you really believe that BA pilots in general will try industrial action over scope. (I laughed so hard I nearly wet myself!) Come on, BALPA aren't even sure they can get you all out over salaries!!!!!! You know, and we know, that if you don't at least throw us a few scraps (by your standards), then management will just call your bluff - like they did last time. I have to say, astonishingly, I find myself almost in sympathy with BA management; it must be a grim business negotiating with blockheads like you and Han Solo. As to OUR BALPA membership, I believe the figure to be currently around 75%, though it could be higher. Most of us don't post on either our Company forum, or the BALPA one, because we quite like the concept of anonymity - not like you eh, KJ ??
As TT also said, unfortunately for you, most of us here in BACEX feel the same way, and your puerile rambling utterings do nothing but antagonise more of us daily.
Personally, (fortunately) I've never had the bad luck to meet a BA pilot with your outlook, whereas I know most of our blokes DO think like me, TT, and the other BACEX guys who have posted on here. If in any doubt - just check the straw poll at the top of this thread!

Finally, DO try and follow some sort of grammatical logic.
I am perfectly prepared to accept that what is good for BA pilots is good for me - but ONLY if I am to be offered the same Ts and Cs. Oddly, you have not addressed this point at all, though it has featured several times. You or Solo mentioned the amount of BA guys who want to come and fly our RJs - now you say this is only 0.1%, which by my maths correlates to 3.2, or possibly 3.3 pilots in total. This will equate to roughly one quarter of an aircraft crewing roster (given 5 crews per aircraft), so I suppose you can fly one of our RJs on Wednesday morning. You and I both know that there are around fifty BAR guys alone, not to mention the ex- CFE blokes.

You are obviously some kind of BACC hothead Mr J, but we have all listened to posturing from management in general, and BA in particular so we are well able to detect the rich odour of bull**** !!!:D

And hear hear for faq. Yes, memories are long, (not that they need to be) and we have a number of ex-Dan guys with us (and bloody good they are too!). You in BACC have a form sheet as long as my elbow - sorry, we flatly do NOT believe you have ANY, never mind our best interests at heart. In fact, heaven help me, for my current medium to long term future, I definitely prefer BA management. At least they need me to fly their aeroplanes, ALL their (regional) aeroplanes - whereas your intention is obvious !:mad:

Gatwick Base, here we come!
 

:) :) :)
And you haven't mentioned the CitiExpress Gatwick base yet.

I'd check your six o clock if I were you -

'the Times they are a Changin'..........'

;) :D :)

Maximuss - sorry to disappoint but the reason I haven't replied to rhythm methods post is that I have actually been working. Yes I know you think nobody in BA works, but you're wrong.

Rhythm method - when CFE joined BA they did just that. They joined the BA seniority list, bringing with them aircraft and routes. BA BALPA worked hard to ensure that they were brought in on the same T & Cs as other EOG pilots, with the exception of the ATR which is a unique case and has pay rates similar to the former BA turboprop routes. BACE on the other hand, are not joining BA. They are bringing nothing to this particular party. They are removing 16 RJs from the mainline fleet, removing 16 RJs worth of pilot positions from mainline and displacing almost all the pilots at BHX, MAN and the LGW RJ fleet. That is a very different situation from the CFE integration.

As the Rider of the Purple Sage mentions in a subsequent post, PILOT costs are not a key factor in profitability but the lack of overheads is. Fine (though I caution against listening to anyone whos been on long haul for too long, they get some very strange ideas). Ideal solution is to keep the RJs as mainline aircraft crewed where possible by mainline pilots, but all seconded to BACE. It has a precedent as all BAR pilots are actually mainline but seconded to BAR. BA certainly wouldn't be able to fully crew these aircraft with the incumbent pilots, so go to BACE, who then provide the remainder of the crew (and, probably, the majority) and they fly on BAR T & Cs. So whats wrong with this? It's a bit like the current deal, the aircraft stay in mainline, BACE crews on the RJ get a pay hike, stable rosters, more time off. So why can't this happen? Its because certain elements from BACE (on this forum at least) just can't wait to get their hands on the RJs and they'll fly them for peanuts, no matter who it screws in the long run.

Rider of the Purple Sage - yes I'm sure lots of long haulers do believe money is diverted to subsidise the flat-earthers in short haul. Im sure they think we should be out of short haul all together, despite the fact that Rod says it would ruin the company and deprive long haul of customers. Little snippet of info on how BA attributes revenue - all connecting flights are allocated ticket revenue on the basis of the proportion of total miles flown. Hence you fly EDI - LHR -JFK, going rate (APEX) for EDI LHR is £69, going rate (APEX) JFK - LHR is about £180. BUT, mileage wise, EDI - LHR is 300 miles, LHR JFK is 3000 miles, so of £249 revenue, long haul get £226.36, short haul get just £22.63! So who's subsidising who? And why was EOG paying Concordes fuel bill for so long (Concorde being classed as a short haul aircraft within BA of course).

To answer some of Tinytims points - Firstly, there has never been any secret in the fact (at least not from our side) that the BAR/BACE scope issue is not a stand alone issue. It has always been subject to larger, all encompassing scope agreement, but that element was completed early due to the imminent closure of the regional bases. There is no question of any CE guys flying the Rj on 'secondment' to BA as effectively they would be on a mainline aircraft on inferior terms, which is exactly what we fought to avoid with CFE. Could you also explain why your chaps will otherwise be redundant, and why your management have sought to secure peoples jobs on the basis of an unsigned, unagreed deal which might or might not have been constructed? As to the 'accomodation' on scope, you are rather overstating your hand here. Posession is nine tenths of the law and right now we posess the aircraft. There's not really an accomodation to be reached as such with BACE, its to be reached between BA and BA BALPA. If and when its decided to let the aircraft go then what you do with it is up to you subject to the terms of the scope deal between us and BA. I dont think BALPA will be massively damaged by this, BACE are large but not a huge element of BALPA and I suspect the financial contribution of the BACE community is at least one if not two orders of magnitude less than BAs. You don't need me to tell you that money talks. Finally to address your questions to airrage, I don't care what you fly below 100 seats, but if BA want you to fly anything bigger than that (and right now you don't apart from your five 146s) it should be as part of the BA seniority list on the superior BA T & Cs. The pilots for these aircraft have to come from somewhere, why not from BACE with a big pay rise?

Hulkomaniac - thanks for your contribution, I admire your ability to structure an argument without resorting to personal abuse. Firstly do not draw comparisons to the last strike situation which was sold out by Chris Darke (whatever happened to him?). I think the overwhelming victory by JF illustrated the increased mood of militancy amongst BA pilots. Lets face it, if the companys going to go bust it won't be because of us, so we might as well take what we can now before they give it to the CSDs. Secondly, I agree entirely with your comment that:

I am perfectly prepared to accept that what is good for BA pilots is good for me - but ONLY if I am to be offered the same Ts and Cs.

As the RJs switch to the regions many pilots will take advantage of being 'unfrozen' on type to go long haul or move to LHR. 50 or so BAR guys are staying plus some ex-CFE, but as you state, thats not enough to crew the operation and we still have a recruitment ban in place. So, why aren't your company council pushing for you to fly the RJ on our terms? There's never been a better time.