Thomas Cook Airlines are not "entering" the Canadian market next summer as have been operating to Vancouver and Calgary from gatwick and Manchester for Canadian Affair since spring 2002.

The "new" routes are the ones that My Travel have operated this year.

Hope its not another nail in their coffin.





Long live the dog!::D

According to BAA figures today, traffic at their UK airports is up 4%year on year for last month. However, charter traffic was down 7%.

This probably reflects the trend towards do-it-yourself trips on budget airlines, instead of taking package holidays.

So, MYT's core package holiday business has to contend with a falling market, let alone generate enough cash flow to ensure the company's survival.

By contrast, First Choice are meeting this year's profit targets and trading very nicely because they moved up-market and have a broad range of profitable niche travel businesses.

My guess is that if MYT survive at all (and I wouldn't bet on it) it will be a much smaller business. Why did they change their name from Airtours? My Travel must be one of the daftest airline names ever invented.

Newscatcher

Thanks for the information but believe it or not this is not news!

I suspect part of MYT's problems this year stem from the press coverage of earlier this year!

As for the name Mytravel I could not agree more what a daft name! But then again the name change probably has been an advantage in recent months.

If I am trying to look on the bright side while some want to poor petrol on the fire it is because 20000+ folks stand to loose their jobs. They are well aware of the problems and don't need you or anyone else to make them feel even worse.

Hi,

I got a flyer advert through the post this evening from Canadian Affair.

They were advertising the Thomas Cook flights from Glasgow to Canada ( 4*weekly I think)

According to the flyer the seats will be leather and with 35 inches of pitch.

Regards

TBS

such a large operation going down the pan is not good for anybody..it will affect the whole UK industry. At the very least it will weaken the bargaining power of unions with so many pilots looking for jobs. I just can't see why some people are hell bent on gloating about this.
Good luck to all at mytravel. :ok:

I personally think they will survive, although eventually they will just be a uk company. MyTravel has a lot of things it can sell off to raise capital they just need to make it through the winter and have a decent summer.

Good luck!

It may well be very interesting to know why these flts have changed (if indeed they have) from MYT to TCX. I find it difficult to believe that anything should be concluded about the future of MYT from this information.
Perhaps it is relevant that Canadian Affairs paid MYT to operate full ac on the Canada routes but Canadian Affairs only sold about two-thirds of the available seats (£400 return) on the flts this summer and probably lost money as a result. Of course flying partly empty planes made the contract more lucrative for MYT. For 2004 maybe Canadian Affairs realise that they need fewer seats with the same no of flts per week?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, no one really knows what is going to happen, there are so many people around that consider themselves experts and have made these predictions to no avail before, lets just hope it turns out ok and remember there but the grace of god.

MYTRAVEL
 

MYTRAVEL will be ok.

We like some have said are higher profile than others and get a kicking when we are down.

All we have done is been totally open since last year about everthing..do not let MYT distract you from the other charter outfits out there "ARE THEY ALL DOING OK"?

For those of you,who are jumping on the band wagon and slating us right now,i just hope the same thing never happens to you.

BEST WISHES EVERYONE.

Hear Hear!

Chris D
(Former MYT employee)

Kestrel, I couldn't agree more. Nobody wants anyone in this industry to fail. When that happens you are talking real lives and real families that suffer. Not just pilots, but all the way from the top to the bottom of the organisation. Even the poorest of people that clean the waste bins get affected.

Also, there is the secondary effect that will undoubtably effect every other pilot out there, especially those that might gloat at another airlines misfortune. You might think yourself lucky, but have you ever thought about the fact that there is a seriously more experienced pilot in the marketplace that will undoubtably get that job opportunity before you will?

And, if MYT went to the wall, can you be SURE your airline isn't the next most vunerable?

Small industry this is. Best thing that you pilots can do is zip ya lips and hope to hell all survive.

Next best thing is that you hope and pray your airline has the best financial management possible. Thats what MYT needs right now, to demonstrate to those that have the ability to pull the plug that they have a sound grip on matters. Beancounters they may be, but trust your existance on the fact that they are and can do a good job to secure your job!

Time to reflect I reckon and get united?

Well said guys, let us hope 2004 brings better fortunes for the entire industry.

Kinsmain, I posted these extracts particularly because it was the nearest I could get to MyTravel Group explaining the "problem" and their resolution. That is, unsullied by those evil journalists!

One of their big problems during the year has been the quality of MyTravel's "price sensitive" information. They seem to release bad news at the last possible moment, thus incurring the wrath of the "experts". If they bit the bullet, and were a bit more "honest", then I am sure that some of the flak would cease.

I hope everything goes well on the 17th! :ok:

MYT
 

If we just take a big step back and look at what that lot have been up to over the last ten years, the quality and integrity of the board and the Airline management and the appalling way that they have treated staff and individuals at times, it would be churlish to bellow ...' what goes round comes around'. Some can scarse conceal their schadenfreude. It has always been an appalling industry for attracting the wrong sort of individuals at the top. That there is life outside the charter industry is beyond doubt and folk should not be worried in trying it out.
Good luck to you all at MYT.
koi...

They haven't. MYT will still fly for Canadian affairs from MAN next year.

TCX will be operating this GLA route at a substantial loss. A sign of how desperate TCX are to find work for their aircraft.

Regards,

Out of interest!

"Lufthansa expects Thomas Cook AG to report an FY net loss of up to €300m, admitting that the tour operator’s performance in the last quarter will not improve its Q3 numbers despite a lift in booking levels.

The airline, which owns 50% of Europe’s second largest tour operator, gave the warning in today’s Q3s, updating Thomas Cook’s Nov02-July03 figures issued in September.

Lufthansa, which devoted a single page in its 24-page release to Thomas Cook AG, says that for the first nine months of its year the tour operator recorded an EBIT loss of €296m, adding that ‘although the level of bookings has picked up over the past months the deficit recorded up to July cannot be neutralised before the end of the business year. We expect for the full business year a segment result (pro rata earnings after taxes and goodwill) at the present level’.

Late last week, Thomas Cook AG’s chief exec Stefan Pichler and CFO Norbert Kickum resigned. The previous day Thomas Cook’s other 50% owner, retailer Karstadt Quelle, issued a profits warning blaming losses at the tour operator for its failure to hit FY targets.

Coverage in the German nationals over the weekend suggested that Thomas Cook will have to make huge writedowns relating to not only its fleet of Condor aircraft but also its purchase of Thomas Cook UK. An un-named analyst told leading financial broadsheet Handlesblatt that the writedowns could run to ‘several hundred million euros’ while top-selling tabloid Das Bild valued the writedowns at €1bn.

Thomas Cook UK’s performance is not separated out from the AG’s in Lufthansa’s statement. Earlier this month UK and Ireland chief executive Manny Fontenla-Novoa said at the ABTA Convention that Thomas Cook UK would report its best ever financial performance.

Fontenla-Novoa was a last-minute replacement for former CEO Stefan Pichler at this year’s Captains of Industry lunch at World Travel Market.

Travel Weekly’s ‘WTM Daily’ reported that he admitted that Thomas Cook is paying ‘three or four times the current market rate’ on its aircraft leases.

Shorter leases are favoured by tour ops as it allows them to manage capacity more easily than if the planes are owned or on long-term leases. However, Lufthansa’s Q3s point out that Pichler and Kickum spent €54m on two Airbus A320s which replaced two leased aircraft.

German trade title FVW, reporting on Pichler’s resignation, said that Thomas Cook Airlines is oversized for the German market and that it still hasn’t found buyers for 13 B757s.

FVW also suggests that the introduction of an upmarket Thomas Cook tour operating brand in Germany brand led to the loss of 300,000 clients. Fontenla-Novoa, on the other hand, has said that the introduction of Thomas Cook as the umbrella brand had been well received in the UK and has helped the bottom line.

Thomas Cook AG’s results for the year to end-Oct03 will be issued at the start of March04. "

TCX will be operating this GLA route at a substantial loss
mmmm....whats the factual basis for this ? I would find it hard to predict passenger numbers so far in advance.
Previous MYT flights ran almost full, no reason why this should not continue with TCX- 757 or A330

I REST MY CASE.

Some months ago I saw several complaining that the British press were picking on MYT as a UK operator and ignoring much bigger problems in other operators. Many of you said that this was not true, well it appears you were sadly wrong.

Frankly this article regarding TC would indicate a worse situation than that faced by MYT! I hope both operators survive but lets stop giving MYT a hard time they have had way more than their fair share of attention. Funny I did not find this report in the TTG or the Financial Mail!

Having just seen the Horizon program on climate change, we may all have much bigger problems ahead. I am off to research a move higher, warmer ground at the other end of the failing Gulf Stream!:{

Kestrel

I don't read that as good news at all

Sorry, wish it was otherwise.

I don't think Kestrel thinks this is good news! It just makes a point that MYT are not alone! Good luck to all at TC we know how you feel!

I presume that ownership by a big wealthy company like LH gives Thomas Cook an advantage that MT does not have? Another thoght: If the banks were inclined to pull the plug on MT, the time to do it would have been immediatly after the shareholder circular was issued on the 6th.

Who knows? Certainly no one on this forum! However LH don't seem to be that well off these days but all things are relative.

Thomas Cook
 

Looks like this lot pretty skint as well. Can we have at least 4 pages dedicated to the potential collapse of this company and give mytravel a rest.

If you are employed by TC and the answer to any of the following questions is yes, start worrying.
a. Has the Chairman been accused of snorting Coke?
b. Has he also been accused of consorting with Ladies Of Ihe Night?
c. Is BA getting worried about the competition from your airline?
d. Recruiting aggressively when everybody else is cutting back?
e. Ordered another type of aircraft with questionable economics, adding extra costs for maintainace and crewing?
f. Expanded the headquarters building to accomodate even more non-essential staff?
g. Waiting for a cash injection from a questionable offshore source in order to keep afloat?
If all the answers are negative, think positive and try to ignore the rumour mill.

Copied from the MyTravel Forum:

"Lufthansa expects Thomas Cook AG to report an FY net loss of up to €300m, admitting that the tour operator’s performance in the last quarter will not improve its Q3 numbers despite a lift in booking levels.

The airline, which owns 50% of Europe’s second largest tour operator, gave the warning in today’s Q3s, updating Thomas Cook’s Nov02-July03 figures issued in September.

Lufthansa, which devoted a single page in its 24-page release to Thomas Cook AG, says that for the first nine months of its year the tour operator recorded an EBIT loss of €296m, adding that ‘although the level of bookings has picked up over the past months the deficit recorded up to July cannot be neutralised before the end of the business year. We expect for the full business year a segment result (pro rata earnings after taxes and goodwill) at the present level’.

Late last week, Thomas Cook AG’s chief exec Stefan Pichler and CFO Norbert Kickum resigned. The previous day Thomas Cook’s other 50% owner, retailer Karstadt Quelle, issued a profits warning blaming losses at the tour operator for its failure to hit FY targets.

Coverage in the German nationals over the weekend suggested that Thomas Cook will have to make huge writedowns relating to not only its fleet of Condor aircraft but also its purchase of Thomas Cook UK. An un-named analyst told leading financial broadsheet Handlesblatt that the writedowns could run to ‘several hundred million euros’ while top-selling tabloid Das Bild valued the writedowns at €1bn.

Thomas Cook UK’s performance is not separated out from the AG’s in Lufthansa’s statement. Earlier this month UK and Ireland chief executive Manny Fontenla-Novoa said at the ABTA Convention that Thomas Cook UK would report its best ever financial performance.

Fontenla-Novoa was a last-minute replacement for former CEO Stefan Pichler at this year’s Captains of Industry lunch at World Travel Market.

Travel Weekly’s ‘WTM Daily’ reported that he admitted that Thomas Cook is paying ‘three or four times the current market rate’ on its aircraft leases.

Shorter leases are favoured by tour ops as it allows them to manage capacity more easily than if the planes are owned or on long-term leases. However, Lufthansa’s Q3s point out that Pichler and Kickum spent €54m on two Airbus A320s which replaced two leased aircraft.

German trade title FVW, reporting on Pichler’s resignation, said that Thomas Cook Airlines is oversized for the German market and that it still hasn’t found buyers for 13 B757s.

FVW also suggests that the introduction of an upmarket Thomas Cook tour operating brand in Germany brand led to the loss of 300,000 clients. Fontenla-Novoa, on the other hand, has said that the introduction of Thomas Cook as the umbrella brand had been well received in the UK and has helped the bottom line.

Thomas Cook AG’s results for the year to end-Oct03 will be issued at the start of March04. "


Does the Daily Mail know about this?????

In 2004, the following will happen:

EZY will grow its fleet of 319s and open new UK routes
FR will grow its fleet of 738s and open new UK routes
Jet2 will continue to grow and will be operating more a/c than in 2003
Flybe will be operating more leisure routes than in 2003
Britannia Express will be muscling in on the seat-only market
Now will start flying
BMI baby will continue its leisure-orientated growth
Monarch will grow its scheduled operations

Also
Interest rates will go up again

Result - fewer people on package holidays. Ergo the airlines dependent on the traditional package (BY, TCX, AMM, MYT etc) will struggle to attract passengers.

If the Tour Operator fails, the airline goes too. Which Tour Operator is weakest?

I feel for those who will be affected, but MYT seems to have run its course, unless some of the above doesn't happen, or unless it is rescued by brilliant management.

But with the above predicted significant expansion of the seat only carriers, are they not going to also struggle to fill seats? FR and EZY have both had trouble giving away seats let alone getting people to pay for them. With the rulings from Brussels viz pax compensation, the lo-cos are going to be under even tighter margins with increasing competition from their own business model.

I do agree that the Tour operating market is mature, but if the tour ops can adjust their business models to match the market demand, then they offer a positive advantage over the lo-cos as a one-stop-shop for your holiday, for which there will always be some demand.

It's all a case of balance.

A4 ;)

brakedwell - mostly for the enlightenment of the young'uns on here, your post above was a passing reference to the late great 'International Leisure Group' and Harry Goodman, right ?

Nb. ILG was one of the largest travel companies in the decade from the 1980 onwards. It was also the parent company of that fabulous airline, Air Europe.
The whole ILG group came crashing down in early March 1991, much due to the 1991 Gulf war effecting customer confidence in holiday and business travel ( to say nothing of a suposed BA dirty tricks capaign ).

The annoying thing about TCX is that it probably will not even make the papers in the UK as they are a German company. You can bet your bottom doller that MYT will be in all of them when the results are announced as lets face it, it ain't going to be pretty!

Stand 22,

The recent woes at TCX have indeed been highlighted in the national press in the last week. The UK arm is expected to make £30m this year while the German side of the operation is the problem area, hence the apparent dismissal this week of the CEO and his right hand man.

I hope MYT do survive as it does no-one any favours if they fold. Wanabees will find their chances diminished, the MYT staff will have a distressing search for new jobs and the terms and conditions for all pilots will undoubtedly be further diminished as managements can point to a surplus of trained pilots looking for work.

That said, the desperate cost-cutting employed at TCX UK post Sep 11 and reduction of capacity i'm afraid to say was not mirrored at MYT. Therein lies the current predicament they find themselves in.

If it's desperate measures that we are looking for, then I don't see any from MYT or TC.

They are not the firms advertising a million seats for didly squat in the hope of filling their new machines!

That maybe, but not to the same extent that MYTs troubles have been scrutinised.

Lets face it there is not an airline Europe that is not in or about to be in a mess. To think otherwise is burying ones head in the sand.

£30 million profit in the UK for TC is great but put it in context, many of MYT's tour operators make a lot of money but if the group is throwing money out the window then all the company's in the group are put under threat no matter how well they are doing in isolation.

This is a very bad time for the industry, be it seat only or package, don't forget MYT have been in the seat only market for a while now, it is not the cure all it appears. The seat only market is getting as saturated as the package holiday market.

:(

Of course the Mail know about it but they like bashing UK operators not German! Hope all goes well at TC and MYT.

seems TUI is doing quite OK, atleast the UK side.

Sadly not the German side!

in general german speaking countries including switzerland are very unflexible and inefficient in aviation business. They are suitable in manufacturing business. Flexibility is key to aviation.

Completely agree Kinsman. The intense competition in the air travel market which has given the travelling public fares that are within reach of most people is also subject to the troubles which have been spreading since 9/11. There is a worldwide malaise which has made people uneasy, and it has resulted in an economic downturn from which we appear to only just, very cautiously recovering from. The on-going world wide unrest however coupled with the growth of the low cost and increase in the seats available for a projected increase in bums which has failed to materialise is creating intense competition in a saturated market, Market forces will result in ' corrections' these will contain pain and inevitable hardships for some, in the meantime every little bit counts, and each company and it's personel will if they are sensible will be doing the best trying to simply survive and try to ensure that it will not be them that go under.

"At a substantial loss " what a load of poo given that TCX is a charter airline any loss ( thats assuming that there is any ) would be Canadian affairs as TCX would be paid if the flight is full or not .