All those people criticizing fmc_apprentice are just not getting it. The reason he has to speak here anonymously is that he fears Ryanair would sack him if he made a big deal. Whether they would or not is open to debate, but as others have remarked earlier, in order to advance up the airline system you need the right mates at the right time. If he is seen as a 'splitter' then nothing needs to be said - he will just fail an LPC or a Line Check one day. He would therefore by definition be 'incompetent' as a pilot and he is finished - it is that easy.

I have to say I am simply astonished at this thread - I simply did not know there were any credible airlines in the world who would tolerate this situation. I am even more astonished to find out that Ryanair, having been embarrassed by this thread into re-iterating the no smoking ban, are tolerating the flagrant abuse of it in the last few days. The issue is not health or smoking per se, however important that may be. It is that a company rule, despite being re-issued is being overtly disregarded with impunity. This is simply unacceptable in any airline and is a clear indicator that company rules at Ryanair are open to 'interpretation' and if necessary disobedience if the expedient of the situation demands. Is there no manager at Ryanair who has the courage to deal with this? This is not the problem of a few highly strung F/Os - this is a major management issue.

All you managers at Ryanair - are you going to enforce your own rules or not? This whole situation is reminiscent of those yobs who get nicked for throwing bricks over bridges and killing swans - there is no one more surprised than them that the swans were hit as they were sure they would get out of the way. No doubt you will be utterly surprised when some far more disastrous incident occurs to a Ryanair aircract. After all, how could it have happened - there were clear rules that if followed would have prevented it.

FMC apprentice, as you know safety reports are confidential and do not require you to reveal your identity. I agree with you that flying with someone that smokes does not make a pleasant day, and although he/she may ask you if you mind, they realy do not mean it, with the exeption of one gentleman.
My suggestion to you is put in the reports and do it frequently. You will be surprised as to who reads these.
If in a months time they have not taken action, I would be surprised..., but you can always come back here and tell us that it did not work.
On the other hand if you do not have the guts to put in an anonymous report I have no sympathy for your predicament.
JP:D

I don't smoke and think it's not on tp smoke in the cockpit for several reasons. It's against the rules, smokers are now a minority, and many nonsmokers have strong objections to smoke around them. (I don't think it's a flight safety issue but that's not the debate here so I won't go into that.)

The sympathy I'd have had for fmc_apprentice disappeared because of his atitude. He all but identifed his company in his first post and if that wasn't bad enough he then went all the way. All this on a public forum.
There are lots of ways he could have sorted this out without revealing his own ID and without damaging his company. He hides behind the anonymity we all have on Prune but he has no quarms about naming his company.
He's got no loyalty and if he gets weeded out for any reason they'll be better off with one less whinger who's prepared to damage the company image for his own ends.
He's the pain in the butt type who'll always find something to whinge about. If it wasn't this it would be something else.
I wouldn't want to work with him.

NSF
Just because people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean they're not "getting it".

F...A my sympathy. Difficult situation as new F/Os. You guys really have Eastern Bloc pilots based in UK, and working for an Irish (EU) company?

Virgin, I think you're being unduly harsh. The identity of the airline was relevant information if fmc was to find out how prevalent the problem was in the industry. I'm only SLF, but have experience of HR issues and while it's important for junior staff to have confidential reporting lines for whistle-blowing, the fact is few really exist. There are also sadly few managers in ANY industry who can hand-on-heart say that they are not subsequently prejudiced against a junior who criticises them openly. Maybe, on occasion, the junior has tact and diplomacy beyond what would be expected at his stage in his career, and maybe, on occasion, the manager is able to take a criticism as a professional not a personal issue, and maybe, on occasion, the two have a sufficiently strong rapport for the issue to be cleared up between the two of them. For the rest of the time, it's up to the company to provide the means for the complaint to be made.

A Response from Ryanair!!!

First an apology to Ryanair. I faxed them my ‘complaint’ on the 4th October. They actually responded on the 8th October. Unfortunately they answered by post so I only received their reply here in Darkest Africa on the 29th Oct. But full marks for a quick response. I apologise for thinking they did’nt care!!

The relevant part of my letter to Ryanair was as follows:-

“is smoking allowed on the flight deck of the Ryanair aircraft by the crew or anyone else for that matter?
There is a debate on the internet at the moment on this subject and we are under the impression that smoking was prohibited throughout the aircraft, not just the cabin”

I reproduce the exact text of their reply:-

QUOTE

Without Prejudice

Dear Sir,
Thank you for your fax dated 4th October 2003

I have noted your comments and would like to advise that you may not smoke in any part of the aircraft operated by Ryanair. Failure to adhere to this regulation may result in severe criminal penalties being brought against you as well as a disruption fee of 1000 Euros (or equivalent) being charged against you by Ryanair.

Should you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact me at the above address.

Yours sincerely

Maureen Noonan
Customer Standard Executive”

UNQUOTE

Quite an emphatic reply. Little bit disingenuous in that it tells me that “you” may not do, as opposed to the crew, but clear enough.

So FMC Apprentice I suggest you do a few dozen copies of this letter and leave them ‘lying around’ in the various flight decks you occupy or even drop a line to Maureen. After all she is an executive of the airline!! ( I will drop you a Private Message)

By the way. I copied my original letter to SAA here in South Africa asking them to also confirm that there was No Smoking on their flight decks. No reply so far despite 3 follow up faxes.:ok:

The problem this individual is having sums up the Industry.

Even the most reasonable of compaints or constructive comments may result in the end of career.

The amazing response to this good post proves the point.

If the pax cant smoke the crew cant.

Captains who dont understand this problem should not be captains.

But all this is the tip of the iceberg, there is so much more that goes on in this industry which the approval process fails to regulate.

F/a
I do feel sorry for you,
but more importantly I do worry about the CRM implications

Tenerife - (and we all know that it is still the highest number of fatalities in an aircraft accident )
happened because the FO felt he could not speak out and tell the Captain that he was wrong.

Please tell me we're not reverting back to those days!

This could be the start of something that could become much more serious.

It's just like being back at school the bullies that break the rules still shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Go tell the teacher!

And let's face it, this is your health they're affecting, if they were flying in an unsafe manner, I'm sure everyone would be quick to report them then.

:(

pHow about asking the smoking Left Hander to what age they hopes to gain a Class 1 Med? I guess they will end up teaching the IR in the FNPT2. They look about 70 then you find out they are 45.

I guess you could also ask them to cast theor mind back to their Sim instructor? that should do the trick;)

Seriously though if there are several of you you could get together and send the same unsigned letter to HR at the same time.

I used to work in a smoking office just outside London. I have an extremly bad reaction to smoke as it makes me feel cr:mad:p for about 3 days so objected. I found out several others felt the same. We wrote a letter and printed off several; copies then sent them via the same local post office to HR. Worked a treat.

Pi:mad: sed off the smokers mind:D

This has turned into a big anti-smoker-campaign. Too strong a deodorant, chewing gum etc. might be next (at least on pprune…)? As annoying and unpleasant as one or the other thing might be for us, maybe we can try to be a bit more tolerant? And if the situation does become unbearable –as in this case it clearly does- and you are in the right, you have to do something about it and stand up for yourself. If you don’t, and all you can manage is moan, maybe even your right hand seat is too big for you?

Happy flying, might see you all in the pub (smoke free, of course!).

...and no-one has yet mentioned other flight decks, in which you will still find smoking pilots...

CLUE 1: Could it be a LoCo thing?

That aside, this whole debate indicates the petty depths to which pilots have sunk. This, of course, is a consequence of the manner in which they are 'managed', and is indicated by the number of 'career FOs in companies without seniority lists.

CLUE 2 The 'other' LoCo airline has no seniority list, and plenty of 'career' FOs who have done nothing more than stand by what they thought was right at one time or another (Most of them potentially very competent commanders, held back by appallingly twisted management).

Absolutely disgraceful.

Further Letter from Ryanair!!!

On requesting clarification Ryanair replied as follows:-

QUOTE

30th Oct 2004

Thank you for your letter dated 4th October.
I can advise that Ryanair do operate non-smoking flights only, which includes the flight deck.
Trusting I have answered your query
Yours sincerly

Andrew Leonard
Customer Standards Supervisor

UNQUOTE

I have replied, thanking them for their clarification, but referring to Pprune and the potential CRM problem that 'appears' to be arising within their organisation. We await their response with interest.

FMC_apprentice. A while since we heard from you?? Any ripples in your world.

Flying Bean

It sounds like your pro-active reaction to FMC-apprentice's email should have some effect, assuming the Chief Pilot chooses to look at pprune!
Its a very sad state of affairs when anyone, be it captain, FO, C/A, engineer or ground staff feel they cannot make an honest and justifiable complaint without jeopardising their career.
CRM is great, and most effective on those who least need it - the more thick skinned ones will always be thick skinned whatever you do - hopefully CRM will have at least some effect on them.....:hmm:

I was quite impressed when Ryanair took the trouble to respond to Flying Bean's first letter. Now they've responded yet again. Either they're a good-natured bunch with infinite patience, or they're playing safe in case it's some tabloid journo trying to create a story.
Now they've given an answer, and clarified it on request, they'd be unwise to respond again.

If they take up FB's invitation to look at Pprune, I wonder what they'll make of one of their pilots naming them and washing their (alleged) dirty linen in public. Like some others, I don't understand why FMC couldn't have asked Pruners' advice on how to deal with what he considers to be a problem without naming his company on the most widely read forum of a public web site.

135 posts. :rolleyes:
Some little whinger who's not big enough or hasn't got the wit to sort out problems for himself comes running to Prune and the thread's running like a soap opera. What a load of old women it's attracted. Now we've got Bouncing Bean writing to the company. 'So I said' and 'They said' so 'I said'. Can't wait for the next episode. This has to be one of the most stupid threads on what's usually a fantastic web site.
Rumours & News?? :*
FCA-whinger's lucky the Mods didn't move it to Jetblast or the Agony Aunt forum ages ago.

Non-smoker, BTW.

With an attitude like yours, I only hope you are a non-PIC as well!

In my opinion this is not about smoking . This is about mutual love between people of two nationalities . Another chance to say b..t about ' Irish mob' .

I am at same position as FMC apprentice .
The problem does exist but not to such extent . 20% smoking captains - this is just 10 times more that I have seen in 3 years .:ok:

If it worries you so much FMC Apprentice do have guts to say something . Why are you crying here ? I know people who have never tolerated smoking in RYR . They are still alive . They have successfull career if career is so important for you .

What you have said about Eastern bloc pilots ( I do not really know what you mean by that ) is just so familiar example of racism .

If you have passed you HP exam with 100% mark and attended all your CRM courses - this is still not enough to understand what it is all about .

Yes. I do have confirmation that my letters, but also more importantly, the PPrune discussion, has penetrated through to the Ryanair Management. It will be interesting to see if we hear of any postive reaction!!
Power to PPrune!!!

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but I offer this to the discussion: Smoking onboard is unsafe, that's why it was abandoned. Furthermore, it is against most federal laws to smoke onboard, hence the briefing upon boarding and all the verbal and visual cues on the plane.
What kind of example would the crew set if they smoked themselves, especialy the commender of the ship! Do as I say and not as I do?

It is also unhealthy as both first and second hand smoking are known cause of cancer. If one wants to smoke his life away that's one's choice, but one should not force others to smoke with him in a little cell called the flight deck!

Just a friendly note for those that still think they are above the law: YOU'RE NOT, STOP SMOKING ONBOARD!!

So Ryanair management is reading this. That's what fmc_apprentice wanted and with a bit of help from his meddling friend with too much time on his hands, that's what he's got. Success. Maybe, as long as they don’t work out who he is. He was worried they wouldn't like him complaining about smoking captains, they're not going to be too pleased about him slagging off the company in public AND threatening to go to the newspapers.
I'm sorry, there's something very fishy about all this. Perhaps there's a smoking problem but I think fmc's got another agenda. Yeah, I know, I'm going barmy in my old age.
Everyone takes his 'F/O starting out' story as true, but perhaps it's not. Mystery man 'fmc' started this topic. Why mystery man? He ain't posted before, and only once on one other thread since, about the agency he's "been told" is best for Captains wanting to get into Ryannair. Funny that.
Is there another username who says he supports him AND knows a lot of detail about Ryannair AND keeps pretending it's friends telling him things. You can say friends told you but you can't afford to slip up and say something you've seen yourself if you've made out it's another company's cockpit. And if this other person is also slagging off the company could he and fmc be the same person. Mad theory?
What if in one year this second guy who says he doesn't work for Ryanair has gone from asking questions about jobs with the company to telling people how to play interviews and then saying he's been "told" what experienced F/O's get a month.
It couldn't be they're the same person. Course not. It couldn't possibly be a captain or experienced F/O who left somewhere like let's say Channel Express who's found out the grass ain't always greener and has got a grudge against his company or someone there. Course not, as I said I'm just going barmy in my old age.

Alty Meter, do you also believe that JFK was murdered by the CIA and a conspiracy covered it all up?
To those (few) giving fmc apprentice a hard time, I say go jump.
I had to put up with chain-smokers on 747 classics in our company many years ago. It turned a pleasant trip into total misery! Thankfully smoking was totally banned on our flightdecks about ten years ago.
If you are one of the many smokers who smoke in public places (bars, restaurants etc. ) then I say " Rot in hell!"
You smokers are (often) arrogant, rude, inconsiderate and a whole lot more. Just by smoking in public places you are proving this!! (I am NOT directing this at smokers who only smoke away from others!)
A huge majority of people feel as I do but unlike you most are
too polite to say something which may offend. I have had two restaurant meals ruined in the last two weeks by smokers!

If this is true about Ryanair (and I suspect it is!) then I am apalled that any (western) airline has such disgusting work practices.
I hereby award Ryanair the "Dirty Ashtray Award". I hope the lawyers hound them on this issue- I normally can't tolerate the mentality of "sue, sue , sue" but here it is justified,
TOTALLY justified.
Good luck fmc apprentice- I can really empathasize with you.

My god Nigel calm down, there are much worse things in life to get upset about.
If you keep this up, it ill be your heart failing rather than your lungs from second hand smoke.

Hey Nigel
 

"arrogant, rude, inconsiderate and a whole lot more"

Hmmmmm. Sounds familiar.

Maybe you should start smoking...

Yeh, calm down???
The point is that, ( ignoring health effects ) for most non smokers, being forced to breath someone else's smoke is about as pleasant as being forced to breath someone else's really foul farts continuously.
If I sat next to you in a confined space constantly passing the most foul and smelly farts imaginable- don't you think you might get a little upset.... just a little.
Yet smokers don't seem to realze just how objectionable their smoke is...
They also don't seem (or don't want) to realize that stubbing their butts out on the sidewalk is littering.
I think I have every right to get upset about it all.

The other night I was in a pleasant little bar with about a dozen people. (mostly pilots and spouses) We were having an enjoyable and quiet drink/discussion, when in came three smokers who all lit up... one a cigar. Every single one of our group hated the smoke.... and so ten minutes later we moved on. Nothing was said to the smokers as it's "their right to smoke"! Maybe I should be allowed to take a cannister of rotten egg gas into a bar or restaurant and let it off!- my "right!"
I think I'd be abused and chucked out- what's the difference?
:(

Hopefully in the not too distant future smoking will be on a par with homosexual practises...
Allowed only between consenting adults and behind locked doors...

Hey there, Taking Over Nigel,

Let me know which bar that was, will bring along a nice Cuban cigar...just for you.

A bar ain't the flight deck.
Suspect you don't know the difference...:p

Smokers are drug addicts, plain and simple!!! The sooner they realise it the better for them as they may seek treatment.

Before anyone starts shooting me down look at some comparisons.

Heroin is addictive and it can kill you.
Smoking is addictive and it can kill you.

ie what's the difference.

Anyone who still thinks smokers don't have problems just look at the poor sods huddled outside office buildings in the pouring rain (or blizzard), freezing cold and puffing away on their little white sticks. If that doesn't tell them they have an addiction and a problem, nothing will.

Off course, anyone who is a smoker and reads this will deny all of it. (Another classic drug addict sympton).

PS In case you hadn't noticed, people who smoke in confined public spaces really p*ss me off.

PPS Why are the only free seats on a rush hour train in the smoking comparment?

"Heroin is addictive and it can kill you.
Smoking is addictive and it can kill you.

ie what's the difference."


That's a bit twee - Heroin is a class A drug that people kill to deal in and purchase, there ends the difference. Alcohol has more in common with Heroin - and a few unsocial side effects too.

The differnce is...from my point of view and I think a good many others....
Someone can sit at a table behind me in a restaurant and mainline heroin and I I won't know... and I won't care.. it's their choice and their problem... nothing to do with me .. unless of course the !!!! sticks his needle into MY arm.

If on the other hand some dirty smelling arsehole 8 tables away lights up ... within 20 seconds I'm having to breath in the evil smelling !!!!!....and THAT is why I get angry.

yachtpilot - I know where you are coming from :D

I just think the arguments get devaued by inappropriate analogies.

411A

You just proved my point.
Thank you!- no a thousand thank-you's. :ok:

You are rude and arrogant, and a whole lot more.
I won't say what I'm thinking because it would be totally wasted on the likes of you.
Plus it may offend others, couldn't give a rat's **** about offending you. :8

And your posts demonstrated that rudeness, arrogance and an inability to argue a point without being offensive isn't confined to people who smoke. :rolleyes:

TRALF...
I don't consider the analogy inappropriate...I'm merely stating that I have no wish to dictate to others what they should or should not indulge in for pleasure...
I don't disguise my antipathy to smoking behind false concerns for their health.... what they do to themselves is their business ... what they do to my health and comfort is mine...

DSR10

you are completely wrong in your claims. Smoking in any form on an aircraft is a hazzard. I hope that you are not serious about your claims and are just out to wind people up , if this is the case then you have achieved your goal.
For those that think passive smoking is not dangerous - remember Roy Castle. For those of you who don't know him he was a famous Television personality whom, despite having never smoked in his life, developed lung cancer as a result of playing as a musician in 'smokey' night clubs. He went on to develop lung cancer from which he died.

sorry it would appear that DSR10's post was removed ,which was just as wel as he was a bit of a *?@)er.

I cant help wondering if this thread would still be running if it wasnt ryanair.

Shades of resentment again. Just get used to it. The irish are colonising the south of england, and this time they are not here to build the motorways and townhalls. cheers europe.

Who knows we may get the formation of the sra (not the sudanese one) stansted republican army, a bunch of dissaffected southerners trying to liberate essex from the economic domination of the irish invader.

dont ya luv it

more power to ryr. ciggies an all.

:} :} :}

before anyone in the right seat has a pop as they usually do on this forum
i'm a captain that doesnt smoke , i have right wing views and therefore must have no command/people skills.
some of todays f/os remind me of aid workers. full of principle and revulsion for the western policy, until the un offers them a job. get a life boys and deal with it.

........ Farty THAT'S why you have no command/people skills!! Hehe.....



You're obviously sitting on the F/O's lap then...... most captains look out over the left wing......

Hehe.... gimme a break!

Since FMC apprentice has gone quite, I would like to inform him, that not long ago (a month or so) three Captains were let go beacuse they were smoking. All three times they were reported through the anonymous safety report system, and guess what, they were not from the middle east, or from the eastern countries. They were Western Europeans, and the company took the hard stance and they are not with us any longer. Smoking on board is not a common practice, and I would say that it is less than 10 guys out of 800 pilots who smoke. Even these guys are not smoking anymore as they are proffesionals and they obey the FCIs.
JP:O
FMC apprentice I think now that we have informed pprune about Ryanair's Stance on this matter, and since you can confirm it internaly, next time you have an issue you will consider going the proper way and using the correct chanels. This of course requires that you are a man with, honour, character and dignity.

johnpilot,

The treatment of F/O Duggan, when SHE used the "Right Channels", of course being a shining example of how FR treats it's crews?

We've got some real ninnies in this profession you know.Didnt used to be like that and its a damn shame.Seems like the whole world is being taken over by these obsessive control-freaks who get upset by a puff of smoke.All people have all kinds of annoying traits and foibles.I hate sitting next to some left-wing bleeding heart who goes on about how wrong the war against Saddam or the Taliban is.The drivel they mouth off is more polluting than a few puffs of smoke,I can tell you.Or some politically-correct guy who's been flying all of 1 year who thinks CRM means we're all equal and that its just as much his aircraft as it is mine.


Now,I'll agree that smoking in a confined space like a flight-deck is probably not on.Its been banned stateside for some time.But being a pedantic miserable excuse for a human being who object to people smoking in a bar is DEFINITELY NOT ON.