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-   -   Airport Handling frequency (https://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/588811-airport-handling-frequency.html)

kcockayne 20th Feb 2017 18:50

HD, it never bothered me that people were " eavesdropping". If it had done, I suppose that you could have accused me of hypocracy - since I spent several of my formative years "eavesdropping" on ATC as a spotter (initially VHF , & then HF - which became a passion). In fact, it was what encouraged me to become an ATCO in the first place ! I can see that there is the potential to misuse the technology but, overall, I have never seen any actual harm in it; & nowadays sites such as Flightradar 24 seem to have the potential for being used much more for the pursuit of various nefarious activities.

Skipness One Echo 20th Feb 2017 19:58

HD what's your beef with this? You pop up like an old fusspot everytime this comes up reminding us of our criminality yet it's perfectly legal in many other countries. What drives you to believe the Police should be cracking down on this.

Btw if the "law was the law" there would be no need for a public interest test for any prosecution.

The world has moved on from grammar school chaps in tweed and blazers getting the nod et al. Fr24 as Kcockayne rightly says is way more interesting if you were so minded. Try Century 21! You might like it :)

Hotel Tango 20th Feb 2017 20:00

Having read the ofcom document it's particularly vague when it comes to listening to ATC. As mentioned by KelvinD it is fair to consider ATC as "navigation traffic". The law appears more focused in regard to listening to police and other such radio TX. ATC is a navigation based service. Now, arguably, listening in on company frequencies could be considered "private". Basically, it's all as clear as muck!

DaveReidUK 20th Feb 2017 21:07


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 9682436)
Having read the ofcom document it's particularly vague when it comes to listening to ATC. As mentioned by KelvinD it is fair to consider ATC as "navigation traffic". The law appears more focused in regard to listening to police and other such radio TX. ATC is a navigation based service. Now, arguably, listening in on company frequencies could be considered "private". Basically, it's all as clear as muck!

I don't think it's vague at all.

If you use a scanner to obtain information contained in a message of which you are not the intended recipient, it's an offence under the WTA.

It's a fair cop, guv.

Hotel Tango 20th Feb 2017 23:13


A license is not required to use a radio receiver or scanner as long as it is not capable of transmission. It is not illegal to sell, buy or own a scanner or any other receiver but it should only be used to listen to transmissions meant for general reception.

The services that can be listened to under the definition of general reception are:

1. licensed broadcasting stations;
2. amateur and citizens' band radio transmissions; and
3. weather and navigation transmissions
For me it comes down to the interpretation of navigation transmissions. ;)

DaveReidUK 21st Feb 2017 06:53


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 9682622)
For me it comes down to the interpretation of navigation transmissions.

I guess it means you won't be prosecuted for tuning into your local VOR. :O

KelvinD 21st Feb 2017 07:46

HD: Unless things have changed (and I know they haven't yet), police transmissions in the UK were never encrypted. Northern Ireland was an exception for obvious reasons. Many police, ambulance and airport authorities used MPT1327 trunked systems. I know Heathrow used, and may still use, MPT1327.
Met Police moved to Motorola's Smartzone trunked system in the mid 1990s, moving again to the Tetra system about 15 years later. In each case, they relied on the various systems using "channel hopping" to make life difficult for the bad boys wanting to eavesdrop. The Tetra system made things a stage more difficult for the eavesdroppers by going to digital transmissions.
Encryption was always available as an option but was taken up only on a very restricted basis as it involved more money. Many other police systems around the world did go for encryption but they were generally governments with loads of money. I know this because it is "what I did" for 20 odd years.
Dave: Thanks for the link. My searches of the Ofcom site didn't turn up this one but I failed to search for 'scanners' and perhaps that was the reason. I think it just reinforces the "clear as mud" feeling. Tuning in to a VOR? What a lot of noise they make!

Hotel Tango 21st Feb 2017 09:07


I guess it means you won't be prosecuted for tuning into your local VOR.
Large ATC unit I worked for operated under the title of International Organisation for the Security of Air Navigation. As I say, all down to interpretation! :O

chevvron 21st Feb 2017 09:47


Originally Posted by KelvinD (Post 9682927)
HD: Unless things have changed (and I know they haven't yet), police transmissions in the UK were never encrypted. Northern Ireland was an exception for obvious reasons. Many police, ambulance and airport authorities used MPT1327 trunked systems. I know Heathrow used, and may still use, MPT1327.

Haven't a clue what MPT 1327 is/was but I can recall police in Bucks using a 'duplex' VHF system whereby the 'station' transmitted on one frequency and vehlcles replied on another with 'beeps' being transmitted on the station frequency to tell everyone else to belt up.

Skipness One Echo 21st Feb 2017 12:34


If you use a scanner to obtain information contained in a message of which you are not the intended recipient, it's an offence under the WTA.
And the CPS would take one look and prosecute? Ever? How many Policeman pass the stands selling air band scanners at air shows? I have lost count of the occasions I have chatted with Police with a scanner earpiece in. They don't care and rightly so.

But to be clear, all technically illegal. With no prosecutions ever or likely in any reasonable scenario. Much of the criminal law can pass into disuse or only be used in quite exceptional circumstances.

Hotel Tango 21st Feb 2017 13:28


But to be clear, all technically illegal.
No, not if you are listening to transmissions of one of the listed exceptions. Additionally my point is that ATC communications relate to air navigation, thus navigation. Communications relating to navigation may be listened to! It would certainly make an interesting court case if it ever came to that. :)

As ex ATC I will defend the right for the public to listen in on ATC communications. However, I do vehemently disagree that what is heard be recorded and used on social media, or even worse sold to any national or international news agencies.

One Outsider 21st Feb 2017 13:36

Ignorance of the law, be it real or feigned, has never been a valid defense. Neither has deliberate misunderstanding, so cut the bull, HT.

Hotel Tango 21st Feb 2017 13:48

It's my interpretation of the law One Outsider. I stick by it. You don't have to like it. So cut the insults One Outsider!

One Outsider 21st Feb 2017 14:17


It's my interpretation of the law
Harry Frankfurt wrote a paper about it in 1986.

Hotel Tango 21st Feb 2017 14:23

LOL! You're entitled to your opinion One Outsider :p

DaveReidUK 21st Feb 2017 14:46


Originally Posted by Skipness One Echo (Post 9683221)
And the CPS would take one look and prosecute? Ever? How many Policeman pass the stands selling air band scanners at air shows? I have lost count of the occasions I have chatted with Police with a scanner earpiece in. They don't care and rightly so.

But to be clear, all technically illegal. With no prosecutions ever or likely in any reasonable scenario. Much of the criminal law can pass into disuse or only be used in quite exceptional circumstances.

Yes, that's a reasonable summing up of the current situation.

But in the highly unlikely event of a prosecution under the WTA, the "navigation transmissions" defence in respect of ATC traffic wouldn't carry any weight as the Act itself makes no distinction between receiving those and any other transmissions not intended for the recipient.

KelvinD 21st Feb 2017 15:20

chevron: The system you are referring to was the bog standard half-duplex system that was pretty much universal until the advent of trunked radio systems and MPT1327 was an early version of this.

Art E. Fischler-Reisen 21st Feb 2017 16:46

Whether it is legal or not, it is largely unenforceable.

Having been on the other end of ATC transmissions for many years, now working as a private operator I'm more concerned about FR24 giving out information to all and sundry, such as where we departed, where we are going to, present position, altitude and speed. Not to mention G-INFO giving out the owner's details, name and address!

wiggy 22nd Feb 2017 12:00


As ex ATC I will defend the right for the public to listen in on ATC communications. However, I do vehemently disagree that what is heard be recorded and used on social media, or even worse sold to any national or international news agencies.
Yup, sounds fair to me ( ex-spotter)


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