757-200 performance
 

Not sure if this is the right forum but here goes...

A B757-200 is taking off on a short airfield in south east Africa.
The aircraft is around 3-4 tonnes overweight.The weather is
calm with a slight haze.Temperature is 32c.Crew were expecting
54 pax but ended up with 232,four over their seating capacity,
but had to go.
Before V1,fire bells go,and there is indications of a fire in the
number two engine.
Aborting the take-off is not an option.They have to go.

Could any pilot with experience on this type of aircraft tell me
how they would expect the aircraft to react,and the chances of getting airborne would be.How much strengh would be required
to pull the columb back.

There was no load sheet or trim available,so what flap setting
would be used?

With the Captain flying,and aborting not an option,and with the fire bells ringing out,what would the first officer do?

On finally getting sort of airborne,the right main gear hits an
approach beacon.Would you retract the gears not knowing
of the damage or limp on with gear down?

The aircraft was due to fly to France,but has to clear this country which means flying 270 miles.


I know this all sounds crazy,but I have had to change the last chapter in my book.It was to end in disaster,but my publisher wants a sequel,keeping the same two pilots,and cabin crew in tact.I have done as much research as I can,but libraries and book shops don't have much technical data.

One last question to any 747 pilots.In chapter two,the same Captain as above,suffered a number three engine surge at three thousand feet on take off.I have heard of it and believe it is like
a car backfiring.Would this normally cause a shutdown or would you normally carry on.I know there is other forums on 3 engine
flying,but I wrote this chapter back in November,and the aircraft does continue to NYK.It has to for chapter five.Just wondering what the flight engineer would be calling and whether you would shut the engine down.

I would add that my book is purely fiction,and book one has only two fatalities,but nothing to do with the airline or the crew.
I am trying to portray the crew as proffesional as possible,which is why I need help in doing that.Just need to spice up a few chapters to keep the people not putting it down by the swimming pool next year.

Any help would be really appreciated.

prb46,

I will try and help. I have over 12,000 hours on this type of aircraft. Unfortunetaly as is so often the case, reality needs to be suspended for dramatic effect. Reality often lacks entertainment value and so the two rarely go hand in hand. You are using a number of terms that don't make much sense in the context you are presenting them, anyway here goes !

From a performance point of view the 757 is something of a star performer. Most takeoffs are derated by anything up to 20% of maximum rated power. Obviously any derated settings are a function of a number of factors. Runway length, runway slope, contamination factors, obstacles in the extended take off area, altitude, temperature, aircraft weight, tire limit speeds, brake energy limits,etc. From a "limiting runway" the ability to derate is obviously reduced as each of these factors impacts on the performance calculation. The information you provide is insufficient to make a meaningful calculation but presumably it would be a full power take off !

You say the crew were expecting 54 pax but 232 turned up. Presumably this was in "extremis" with gun toting bandits at their heals. A 757-200 holds around 34 tonnes of fuel. It has an (empty weight) of around 59 tonnes, a maximum landing weight of 90 tonnes and a maximum take off weight that varies from each certificated aircraft but generally tops out at about 113 tonnes, but bear in mind this is restricted by the factors in the first paragraph.

This aircraft was flying from south east africa to France ? How long is a piece of string ? The fuel capacity of the aircraft would give it a maximum range of around 8 hours with minimum reserves and a very light payload (54pax) that is about 4000 miles. ( You might want to measure the distance ?). On this full fuel assumption, your aircraft with 54 passengers and a standard amount of luggage would weigh around 98 or 99 tonnes! Then another 178 last minute changes turn up ! Well I assume they didn't bring all their worldly chattels with them, so that would be another payload lump of around 14 tonnes. So the take off weight would now be in the order of 113 tonnes ! As you can see this is now at the maximum certified take off mass of the aircraft. However I appreciate that such niceties are of minor concern to our heroes ?

( continued in chapter 2)

A few thoughts, I am not a jet pilot however mayby I can offer some thoughts. I have flown the 757-200 level d sim for 20 hours, with engine failures/fires etc.
I will obviously bow to superior knowledge of others!!


Take off probably Flap 15.

Regarding engine fire before V1... take off success will depend how far before V1 the fire/failure is. Just because you have an engine fire doesn't mean you have lost the thrust from that engine... however a loss of thrust from one engine significantly before V1 and electing to continue would be bad!

If the captain is flying during the take-off (I will assume therfore Captain is pilot flying), the FO would most probably call the failure e.g.. "Engine fire number 1" For your take-off they continue with a fire before V1. FO would make standard calls "V1 ....Rotate....positive climb". Captain callls 'gear up.' So the gear has hit a light. Well on one engine, overweight in hot conditions at flap 15 I would personally get the gear up to help actually climb! The lights are designed to break so hopefully not to do serious damage if an aircraft hits them.

Just to give you some idea the takeoff might proceed something like this...
At some point early in the climb captain would call to restate the emergency. FO would state 'Engine fire number 1' the captain would ask for the fire checklist engine number 1. The Fo would call and action the checklist from memory with the captain monitoring. e.g.
FO: Number 1 thrust lever close
Cpt: Confirm
FO shuts number 1 thrust lever (this could be the first moment thrust is lost from the engine on fire!)

FO: Number one fuel cock close
Cpt: Confirm
FO: Closes fuel cock

FO: Number one fire handle pull
Cpt: Confirm
FO pulls fire handle.

If fire still exists Fo would turn the fire handle to release one of fire extinguishers on the engine...starts the stopwatch. In 30 seconds if the fire still going, turn the handle the other way and hope for the best!

(Chapter 2)

V1 is an accelerate/stop distance speed. If properly calculated and subsequently executed the aircraft should be able to stop on the remaining runway available provided the reject actions have already been initiated. Beyond this speed the aircraft should be able to continue with one engine failed and achieve a height of 15 feet or more at the end of the runway. ( In fact this is very simplistic the definition is much more involved). In your example it sounds as if V1 sounds good, but is totally meaningless since it isn't seeming relevant to the situation.

Before V1 fire bell goes. and there is an indication of a fire in the right engine. Unless there was a power loss the bell and warning lights and eicas mesage would in fact be the indications.

If V1 has been properly applied and calculated then getting airborne ought to be no problem at all. If there was a power loss well before V1 ( and again how long is a piece of string), then V1 is irrelevant as the heroes have chosen to ignore it, but to continue with the take off into unknown territory. Bear in mind that an engine fire in itself may well not result in power loss to begin with.

The 757 has 3 hydraulic systems pressured to 3000 psi. The flying controls are powered from these systems. There is no manual reversion. you ask what the chances of the aircraft getting airborne would be ? Hard to say without knowing all the parameters and how long the runway is, as are they taking off without any due regard to these factors. It is a bit like asking how long will you survive if you drive at 100 mph on country roads ? The "strength to pull back" would not be much of a factor since even the trim on a fully loaded 757 would not be likely to vary much within the normal take range.

Certainly if you were forced to rotate before Vr due to the rapidly approaching end of the runway. This would likely require a pull back on the stick that resulted in overrotating the aircraft. What then happens if taken to the limit is the aircraft will reach its geometry limit and the tail will strike the runway. ( You see them doing this on certification tests ). Once airborne with a damaged aft fuselage, the tail end might well be the first thing to strike any obstructions.

"Approach beacons" are not what you think they are. They are normally situated well away from the runways. You mean the approach lighting stanchions. If a gear hit one of these ( and again, it is more likely to be the aft fuselage) then it would probably destroy it and may well damage the tyre and gear.

You ask what the First officer would do ? Having not calculated much so far one can only wonder, but for the purpose of the story... The first officer would apply full power to both engines. Once airborne he would retract the gear. If an emergency turn was required he might normally ensure it was complied with and reported to ATC ( not here I suspect !). He would then ( above about 500 agl ) cancel the warnings and then identify the failure. susequent to this the aircraft would be cleaned up ( flaps retracted ) and the relevant checklists carried out.

As you will appreciate it is very difficult to answer these points with any real credulity, without taking into account a host of actual factors. However as the objective is to attempt to be as factual as possible whilst remaining readably entertaining, then it requires a better undertanding of the assumed circumstances. If you want I will be happy to assist for nothing more than a credit in your book.

Good luck with it. :ok:

Quote:
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"You ask what the First officer would do ? Having not calculated much so far one can only wonder, but for the purpose of the story... "

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Very dry Mr Bealzebub... in fact talking of dry tanks...did the FO order any more fuel for the 14 extra tonnes of self loading? I rather suspect in the heat of the moment...he may not have done.

Many thanks for your replies.
The main problem with writing a novel is to keep the reader
enthralled,but also to make it as realistic as possible.To do that the publisher keeps asking you to go in another direction.
The B757 in question has no radio contact with the tower,and after a near miss with a landing Antonov,which managed a go-around,had no choice but to take off blind.
They are three days late due to waiting for parts to cure a bird strike that happened after landing.The parts never arrived due
to the civil war that was getting worse,and the reason that the pax figure escalated,is that all british and french people were desperate to leave.
The captain had fuelled the aircraft after landing,based on the lower pax figure,and that the engine would be repaired.
I have based the take-off to be a rated one,but this would mean nothing to a reader who does not fly,so presumably would have to make it a full powered take-off?
With a male captain and female first officer,the middle of the book was fairly easy to write.Been to a few crew parties myself.
Made easier by the fact the same crew stick together for the period of the book.

BEALZEBUB

The book is due to be published in America in Feb of next year and in the UK in the last two weeks of April,to make the beginning of the holiday season.Certainly will put you on the credit list.Still have many questions if you are prepared to help.
You may wonder why I have chosen the 757 as the aircraft in my novel.I was with Monarch when they had the first one delivered and thought it a wonderful beast.If any aircraft can do what I am asking then that seems the logical one.

Thanks again for your help

CosmosSchwartz

Thanks for reply.No it\'s not a UK airline,and it\'s not doing a routine flight.How many books do you think would sell with a title of \'A day in the life of a of a UK pilot\'?
The aircraft holds 228 pax seats if I am correct.The four extra were not invited,but you would have to read the book to find out why they were there.
The airport is deserted so you may wonder who took the front steps away?All will be revealed

Cheers

I hope the Ruskie was a 225?....(delivering ballot papers and having suffered a complete GPS/Nav failure)?

prb46,

There is always the amazing story of Capt Ed Daly piloting a 727-100 with over 300 people on board! Evacuees stuffed in the cabin, cargo holds, landing gear wells. There are many accounts written (I think there was even a book), and well documented. Hopefully, this will give you some more information for your book. Don't forget to send me an autographed copy!!

http://www.worldair.com/investors/history2.html

The “Last Flight From Da Nang” garnered worldwide media attention as Daly and the World crew fought off thousands of would-be passengers seeking refuge on the aircraft, dodged bullets and grenades, and ultimately carried more than 300 people to safety in Saigon.

speedbirdzero0ne
I did expect some sarcasm.Yes the original plan was to be a 225 but given the short runway and not knowing anything about the performance of the aircraft,decided against it.The thought of a 225 pulling up at 200 feet and retracting it's huge undercarriage as it goes over you and banking to the left,held some appeal.
That's why it's not easy writing a book about a highly professional crew facing up to an impossible situation.The book never blames the crew and all including cabin crew shine through.But I am not writing 'Handling the big jets',I am writing a book that holiday makers will read.
It is not just about aircraft performance.It has some sex as well,but I don't think I need to ask any questions about paragraph 17!!I am also very well quallified in the operatonal and crewing side of an airline.The earlier two chapters I received will mean that once again I will be working all night.I am off to Africa next week where I hopefully can study another side of the book.I have no intention of degrading the industry,and no intention that holiday makers would rather take the ferry home!!
You guys at the front and back shine through.


JC2354
I think you know where I am coming from.Many thanks and I will do the research.The aircraft in my book is only four over,but if he can get a 727 away anything is possible.If you live in Las Vegas I will bring you a copy!!

Yes, I'm in Las Vegas, and yes, bring me a copy of the book.

I found another, more informative, site for the 727 information. Even has a video of it!

Good luck!

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/Reviews/727/World727/

Bealzebub
Following your responce have made several changes.
From what I understand is that however heavy the aircraft the pulling back will not be a problem.
If that is the case I take it that the aircraft itself will take longer to respond.
If the keys are rapidly coming towards you,and you pull back fully and have enough speed I would presume the aircraft could over rotate,resulting in a tail strike.From memory I believe the 757 has
a bar on it's underside to take any big pressure off such an event happening.
I would then take it that the aircraft would be in a steep climb,so rather than the undercarriage hitting any obstacle,it would be the rear end,but given the fact the flight will proceed at a fairly low level,would it cause any major problem to the crew?
Once again thanks for your help

"Response" I wouldn't normally mention it, but as you are an author. ;)

The aircraft reaction to control input obviously varies depending on the speed. For example at rest or at low speed pulling back on the yolk will do nothing perceptably. At or close to Vr the aircraft will rotate promptly. To rotate at significantly lower speeds will require more input to achieve the effect. If there is not enough speed the aircraft will not lift off. You can only rotate so far before the whole thing becomes geometry limited as the tail end will scrape along the runway in a "firery orange shower of hot sparks". The 757-200 has no bar or anything else to protect itself if this happens. I have never actually done it, but I believe there is a water drain mast that hits first and detaches, followed promptly by the aft fuselage making contact .

The aircraft would be airborne at a higher angle of attack than usual, but not in a steep climb. Remember you damaged it by insisting it rotated to its geometry limit far too early and it now needs to accelerate to an initial climb speed. Having also damaged the back end ( and possibly the aft pressure bulkhead), you wouldn't want to pressurise it too much either. There is a drill to carry out a bit later that deals with this problem.

Having damaged the aft end of the aircraft, it is up to you ( the author) how much of a problem this will cause. It might be anything from scored aluminium ( scratching) to ruptured hydraulic lines.

If you let me know where this aircarft was flying from and its first intended destination, I will try and come up with some numbers for you. They probably wouldn't stand up to expert scrutiny, but should lie somewhere in the ballpark ( or around the pool in this case ). :D

Bealzebub
As the 757 is quite a long aircraft,would the pilots know of a tail scrape,or just the pax down the back?
If the take off speed is too low after this event,but the aircraft has got airborne,would it not just have an angle of attack but not actually getting anywhere.
I am thinking of I believe an Airbus somewhere near Paris at an airshow that overflew and didn't climb out.
In this event would you get a stall warning,and how would you get the extra power to continue given the problems this crew have already faced?And also if there is a stall warning,is it the same as the gpws system?Sorry,I meant does it shout out to you?
I would add that they have to get airborne,in a dramatic fashion,
so I really need what you think would be a realistic escape given all the consequences.
Sorry for the spelling mistake,but that's what publishers are paid for!
Many thanks again

Hello All,

To be honest, I'm not a pilot but I have a fair amount of knowledge because I do flight simulation. I have to admit, based on the facts given, and assuming that an engine actually failed with an overweight situation and the engine warning coming before V1, the take-off should be aborted period!

I mean, I'm sure the novel is interesting but there is a limit to what a qualified and responsible pilot would do in real life, right? How could an aircraft which is overweight take-off on one engine?! ... not to mention how on Earth it was allowed to leave the gate at all when it was overweight to begin with.

In any case - good luck with your novel. Hope it sells well!

John

Not so far fetched Byrna et al,

The time and place shall remain undisclosed but we powered back off stand (actually a set of steps on the fwd door) and as we taxied to the runway the captains brief was "what ever happens we take off" :ooh: :ooh:. A/C type B757-200 RB211-535E4

I would only add that if one intends to go regardless, then one wouldn't mess about with a derate. Full power will get you up to speed faster and give more runway if anything untoward should occur.

Edited to protect the guilty

Many thanks for that Mono.I would have to add that the aircraft is not on a pier,or facing inwards,but on a remote stand,so is able to move forward at will.The steps are removed in the end.
This actually takes place in the very last chapter,and with what the crew have already gone through,and will be going through,
I never thought of a reverse taxi,but have seen it done.Is it not
against most SOP's now?If I added most things, I know I will be slated by pilots saying'Come on,this just wouldn't happen'

John
I think you have got the wrong end of the stick!I am well aware that any crew facing an emergency situation prior to V1 would
abort and come to a happy end on the runway,employ shutes
and get everyone off.
This crew are departing an airfield in South East Africa,which is facing the same problem in many ways as airlines had to do in Sri- Lanka,where 27 people were killed on the airfield and I believe five aircraft were destroyed.To abort would put everyone in a more serious
situation.
So appreciate your comments,but given the scenario,this is why the guys up front shine through.
Just hope it never happens in reality
Cheers PRB

757 powerbacks are an approved if not often used procedure.

There is no doubt that if some brave soul is happy to move the steps that would be safer. However powerback is a possibility.

Will this book be avliable to buy in canda? If so when, It sounds like a very good book.:ok:

Please QED
 

Quote: 757 powerbacks are an approved procedure

So why can't reverse thrust be employed all the way down to taxing speed on the roll out? Surely the stand...(however remote prb46)..is an area where litter contamination would be at the greatest risk. (aisde from the thread) I would like to know why this is an approved procedure. Surely the runway is not a higher risk then the apron or stand?

I have no idea about this but would appreciate an explanation

Many Thanks

I know nothing of the 757, but it can on the 737: recommended procedure is to be at reverse idle at 60kts and cancel at 'normal taxi speed'. I guess intake height off the ground will be one deciding factor, as will idle RPM.

Hi prb46
Well certainly sounds interesting I’ll have to keep an eye out when it hits the streets - any idea of the title? Its nice to see someone who is trying to include elements of realism into an unrealistic situation – or is it?? I have lived in Africa and operated in both military and civil circumstances and I can assure the doubters around that this situation is certainly not beyond the bounds of belief, especially in countries such as Rwanda, Ethiopia, DR of Congo, Angola, Zimbabwe etc etc.
The choice of a 757 is a good one and all of the gen preceding is good so for what its worth here is my 2p worth!
Assuming the A/C is already at the airfield legitimately the crew would already have performance figure and would undoubtedly have done their own load sheet. Consequently they should have a rough idea of their Zero Fuel Weight and TOW. Having those figures would give them an idea of how tight performance was likely to be and they would brief accordingly. Flap 5 is normal but flap 15 is used for rumway limiting reasons but it would undoubtedly be a full power t-off.( Also dependent on temp, a/f altitude, gradient, pressure (QNH type :-)) TOW terrain etc etc) Needs must and if time was tight and they were under pressure the basics would still be there. If they had had a bird strike inbound which had caused damage which was not repaired I would also expect them to have briefed the engine out stuff carefully.
The standard calls would be – set thrust / thrust set, 80kts / check, V1, Rotate xx degrees, positive rate / gear up,(response in bold) where xx equates to the target pitch angle for the initial climb (Normally 17 to 23 degrees or 12-13 degrees engine out)
If there was an engine fire (Eicas warning plus Red MC plus bells) the response is to cancel the bell and continue as per the brief (Normally abandon below V1). As already mentioned a fire does not automatically equate to thrust loss, which would manifest itself as yaw if it occurred.
If there was a thrust loss the PNF would firewall the thrust levers and remind the PF of the pitch target and emergency turn if required. If below V1 I would expect the PF to continue to accelerate to rotate and beyond if there was available runway or to rotate early if not. The pilots would have no EICAS indication of a tail strike (a -300 would) but they would probably expect one if they had to overrotate (25deg or so). Again as already mentioned the A/C would be geometrically alpha limited until airborne but as it became airborne the net flight path would only be a minimal climb. The extra alpha causes excess induced drag which inhibits acceleration rate and consequently climb gradient. A good example of this is the unfortunate 747 accident at Halifax last year where exactly this happened. Fortunately the 757 is exceptionally powerful and would still have to power to recover (depending on the obvious of course)
Once airborne it would be a question of prioritisation - fly the beast, sort out the problems in order of importance. The crew would probably be aware of the tail strike but not necessarily of the gear, chances are given the trauma of the t-off it would go up but equally its not a problem if left down & the accel & terrain are no factor. Speed limited to 250kts/.8 if I remember. Would suggest low transit & land in friendly neighbouring state which would solve the pressurisation prob of the tail strike. The 75 has no fuel dump.
Hope its of some use - good luck btw seat fit max is 235 pax 2 jump seats in cockpit, 7(8?) crew seats & 4 toilet seats!! On long haul crew is normally 2+6
Regards & good luck
GG

Hi Greek God
Many thanks for that.It has answered many questions that I
was about to ask.Many thanks to everyone else as well.
I sometimes wish I never started this project,it takes up your
whole life.I'm afraid there will be many more questions regarding
the 757 in the next few months.
To give everyone an idea on the project,here goes

The 757 is owned by a Paris based airline.It has four,and two
737's.
This aircraft is sent to the Cameroons,to fly out of Douala on
a three month contract to cover heavy maintenance on the
national carriers 757.There are two crew.
The maintenance is put back by a month,so one crew return
to Paris,the other remains with nothing but standby's.
In a joint deal between the airlines,the aircraft is made available
to three brokers.It is not long before the aircraft heads up North
and being June,is snapped up wherever it lands.
With one crew,it flies all over the place.I have done my research
and have been to all the places in the book.I was supposed
to be in a certain place in Africa this week,but Visa problems.
The crew are up to anything.They use min rest,they have catering problems,fuelling problems,no flight plan,no performance
etc.Ok,they have a medical emergency over the Sahara as well!
The crew do get their days off,but don't know where it will be.
The one thing the crew have is a great aircraft.
So a few questions
On start up does it make any difference which engine you start
first.I believe you normally start number two.But is there a
technical reason behind this?
You are on final approach to Zakynthos.You have a full load,so what flap setting would you use?On touchdown,you experience
a downdraft.The left main gear hits the runway,but the tilt of the
aircraft is such that a go around is called.What would be your
procedures?Aircraft pulls up with no problem,what sort of time
would it normally take before you would be on finals again?
Still got loads more questions,but one stage at a time.
Greek God
Don't know the title yet,and I still have a long way to go.I wanted to just use their final flight number,but will let you know.
Going back to my original question regarding the 757 performance.The aircraft suffers a bird strike while taxiing
in.The engineer picks this up,the flight deck crew didn't feel
anything.There is a little fan blade damage,but under ideal
conditions,ie back at base,would you normally expect to have
a boroscope check before the next departure.Ok,you would expect to have the damaged blades replaced,but is the boroscope check more important?
Once again many thanks to everyone

Prb46 Hi again
Well busy little bees certainly!!
To your questions:
It is normal to start the right engine first (no2) but no real technical requirement just convention, indeed if an airstart is required with a GPU you usually start the left first as the unit connects to the right duct and will normally impinge on the right engine intake danger area.
Would need to be a mighty bounce but Zakynthos is not that long so provided Speedbrakes & reversers not deployed a GA should not be too much bother. Approach is normally flap 30 & GA would be commanded "GA flap 15, then with pos ROC " Positive climb gear up) (unless suspected damage from bounce) A visual circuit would take about 6 - 8 minutes I would expect assuming no other probs / interference.
WRT the birdstrike. Damage to the fan is relative - the fan can take more damage than the tubine so if evidence the bird has entered the HP compressor area the borescope would be more important. NB this is extremely generalised
Hope this is OK

Hi Greek God again
Fairly simple question this time,and not in this book but the first chapter of the next hopefully.
The 757 has remained at 12000ft and as it cannot return,the
Capt decides to change from going to the Cameroons and aims
North east to Nairobi.
This involves Going over Northern Rhodesia and overflying
Tanganyika.Given the fact they have no flight plan or overflight
clearances,what should they expect?Any company on their left or
right?
Unwelcome visitors arrive on the flight deck,which is how my first
book will end,and the aircraft on one engine diverts to the left
and lands in good old Entebbe.
The number two engine is completely gone.The visitors wish to take the aircraft a lot further.Capt eventually agrees,with the
understanding that all baggage will be removed,and that only
one hundred pax will stay on board.Only females and children
are allowed to stay(well, forced!)So payload fairly low.
The question I am asking is can you take off without a problem
on one engine,given this sort of payload,and what sort of fuel
would you be able to take,and what sort of mileage could you
make?The number one engine is working fine.I am working on
a runway length of around 2400ft.
Oh,sorry,it was not the Captains decision that only females and children stay on board.
And one very quick question.Where are the controls for applying
the speedbrakes.Middle console?
I do understand that the question asked is very basic.I know
you will be looking at airport weather,on route wind speeds,
destination weather,alternates etc.Just want a very rough
idea of what I can work to,and if any chance could anyone
tell me what the actual runway length is at Entebbe or does
this airport not come into Aerads
Once again,Many thanks

Hi again
A few discrepancies here - Northern Rhodesia? Tanganyika, 757?
Speebrake lever is captains side of the centre console.
I would not even consider a single engine takeoff anywhere irrespective of external influences you just wouldn't do it.
Depending on departure airfield, Zimbabwe has Migs Shenyangs & hawks, DRof Congo has a few Migs I believe, Zambia likewise, Malawi nothing, not too sure about Kenya or Ethiopia. Certainly I would not expect any of them to be able to react quickly enough to enable an interception but I may be wrong.
Regards
GG

Hi. Have been following with interest this chain of postings, as I've always had inklings that the 757 was an excellent performer. Can any pilots w/757 experience expand upon this? I can specifically recall a take-off at John Wayne airport at Orange County (KSNA) that was probably close to max-performance (full pax load, short runway), and it was quite impressive, as a passenger.

Yes, the 757 is a great performer during T/O and initial climb and one engine inop. The flight controls are somewhat on the heavy side so handling is a dull affaire.

2400 ft just won't do - I cannot remember the minimum control speed [ground] for one engine inop but it must be in the 100 knots range = you can't set full bore before you got 100 knots = you need miles more than 2400 ft. Anyway, 2400 ft is too short for landing, 6000' will be OK for a legal landing at 210.000 lbs - I wouldn't dare on less than 3000'.

Funny thread. Whats the title ?

Well here we go again
Having spent all day in London on thursday with the publishers
I have to change a few things,which I didn't want to do.
Aircraft has landed safely,and put on a very remote stand for
obvious reasons.
Okay,I accept you cannot do a one engine take-off.In an ideal
world,crew go off to a hotel,and either wait for an engine
change or replacement aircraft.And you would probably be checking your crew hours.But here is when things change.
Negotiations take place,and catering,water are put on board.
Things go well for about four hours.But then things change.
Negotiations break down,and you end up with a stewardess
very dead in the front galley.Rest of the cabin crew are
completely traumatised.
So here is my question...
Capt has flown sh360,bae146-200,737-200,757-200,747-200
and then for reasons earlier in the book returns to the 757.
F/O has three years on a 737-300 before going onto the 757.
There is a B737-800 on the main tarmac.Could you take it?
Runway distance is fine,and all manuals are up to date.
Right,the cabin crew are not qualified either,but these
are not Jarops flights,and if you can take this aircraft,
unfortunately you have lost another four passengers.
One more spanner in the works
You have hardly had any sleep in three days.Not an easy day!
Well I did say I was going to push you 757 guys to the
limit
Best regards

Wouldn't do it just for commercial reasons but in an emergency (read: sound of civil unrest / war in the background) I wouldn't think twice. Basically it is Boeing and apart from the two storey ones they are quite alike.

Hi Again
Changing Scenarios and quite apart from getting from aircraft A to B depending on time & urgency I suppose it could be done. Although I note the Capt has only 737-200 experience & the FO -300. The -800 is a NG(New Generation) and as such quite a bit different to the 300 avionics wise but at the end of the day if it was life & death as long as you could get it fired up it would fly just the same as a normal aircraft & if - 300 speeds were used it would be on the safe side.(NG have different and more efficient wings)
Good Luck
GG

Thanks for your replies
So GG would I be better using a 767-300?This is actually
in my next book.
I believe (flew on Air seychelles)that it can do about 11 hours
which would probably make it a better proposition.
So we get to the Cameroons,and you have to head North.
Can you fly a two engine aircraft across the Sahara.I did
it on a 720b,showing my age.Just wondering what alternates
you would have.And yes,the aircraft is aiming for the middle
east.
Back to the 757.
You are making a normal approach to a standard airport.
What height and speed roughly would you be doing when
you select gear down?
F/O calls that you have two greens,and one red.Nose gear.
What would you then do?Would you have time to retract the
gears and try again,or would you be doing a go around.
No nasty guys behind,just a charter flight.
You think it's an indication problem.
So gears go down again,and still the same result.You are
certain the gear is fine.Would you then overfly the tower
so they could have a look?
I know you are probably thinking I am mad with these questions
regarding my book.I don't write one chapter at a time in order,
could be writing chapter 22 and then go back to 4.
Most of the book is just about the crew,and most flights they operate are fairly routine
Many thanks
Thanks again

Well, I never got south of Rome in a 720 ;) so I'll skip the Sahara bit.

In an ideal world you would have been descending with both engines in idle since leaving cruise altitude, reducing speed gradually and finally, coming up the glideslope, extending flap 1, then flap 5. At glideslope intercept select gear down and flaps 20 - speed would be max 195 knots before flaps 20 is selected. As speed bleed off (to less than 163 knots) landing flap 30 is selected. So far we've used about 1000' down the glideslope.

On a normal approach it is common SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) to be fully established 1000' above touch-down. That is: gear down, flaps in landing position (30 on a 757), speed on Vref +5 (Vref = 137 KIAS at MLW to 109 at 140.000 lbs) and engines producing positive thrust.

So - gear down comes about 2000'.

Yes, you would have time to retract the gear and try again but just barely - remember this thingy is not stopping by it self so to be safe a go around would most likely be the choice of the day.

Indication problem... hmm, got 2 lamps in that indicator - both failed ? Spare lamps are available.
Overflying the tower for a second opinion ? .... why not .... then why ? They won't be able to tell you if the gear is locked, only what it looks like.
Full emergency procedure both in the cabin and on ground will be required.

Dusk2Dawn
Many thanks and sorry,I didn't know you have two lights
and spares.
So here we go again.
On approach you don't get the green light.Front gear is
not locked and the indication is correct.I would presume
you would call for a go around straight away.
You have done the go around,but during that,would you retract the gears and try again?
Either way,the front gear does not lock.
Would your approach speeds be any different?I realise that
on landing you hold the nose up as long as possible,but
what sort of speed could you reduce to until you finally have
put the nose gear down?Would you be using max flaps?
You have called a full emergency and everything is in place
for your landing.You call the steward up front and tell him
about the problems.What would you then expect him to do?
Would he tell the pax,or just your crew?
Thanks again

Interesting thread!

I have a little 757 experience and hope this helps a wee bit. All you have heard about the gear problems and normal operation is correct. A couple of extras bits and pieces for you though.

The 757 is equipped with a system called EICAS Engine Instrumentation and Crew Alerting, it senses most of the parameters that at one stage were monitored by a flight eng. With a gear problem the PRIMARY indication of that problem is the EICAS, if you select gear down, don't get three greens and also get an EICAS Gear Disagree message, then you have a problem and given the time a go-around is probably the safest and least rushed option. If you do not get three greens and also get NO EICAS message, you do NOT have a problem and there is an indication problem, in theory just continue because the gear IS down. Testing the bulbs by pressing the test switch for the lighting can be more trouble than it is worth, and a button I will never allowed to be touched in the air. I can not think of many things worse than it sticking in the on position and illumination the whole flight deck up, masking any further problems for the resy of the flight, but each to their own! As for doing fly pasts, daytime, maybe not much use if it is at night especially if it is a main gear problem, one thing that can save you though is that the landing lights are on the nose gear, so only when it is down and locked do they come on, I have in the past flashed them at our ground based colleagues, if they see them flash and there is no EICAS message, it's a pretty safe bet the gear is where it should be.

Good luck with the book.

Jazzy:ok:

Yes, I think I would retract the gear in the go-around and from there on follow the QRH - Quick Reference Handbook (emerg. checklist).

Normal landing flaps and approach speed.

On landing I would not hold the nose up as long as possible because the 757 runs out of speed (= aerodynamic control) in a most ungratifying manner resulting in a very firm nose down. A controlled lowering of the nose is to be preferred.

As for the cabin you would have to brief not only the crew but also the pax on the impending nose gear collapse. Unless the steward has peculiar talents in talking to people, the aircraft commander would do the initial explanation, ending with "follow the instructions given by the cabin crew". Those will include instructions on how and when to take the "brace for impact" position. And not to use the aft exits as the slides probably can't reach the ground (The Gimli Glider strikes again).

Thanks again
So you come it a normal speed,and everyone is expecting
a problem.
You put the nose down and it's not locked.Would it just go back
into it's bay,or would it kick back into the cabin.And on the approach or before,would you ask pax and crew at the front to move back(165 pax)
So the gear collapses,but the nose has to come down at some
point.Does the 757 have enough strength under you for you
to get out in one piece?(Under the cockpit)
At what point would you use reverse thrust?After the gear
collapses,or when main gears touch down?
Sorry to be a pain

Would it just go back into it's bay,or would it kick back into the cabin ?

Haven't got the faintest.... what kind of fault is it ?

Would you ask pax and crew at the front to move back ?

Serves no purpose (opinions anyone ?)

Does the 757 have enough strength under you for you to get out in one piece ?

Sure - it's a Boeing :O

At what point would you use reverse thrust ?

Idle reverse at touch-down followed by emergency shut-down and evacuation as soon as aircraft stops.

Now it's my turn: what will the title be?

Just to add a little more complication for you the 757 also has an emergency gear lowering system. Press a button and an independent system releases the uplocks. The gear should then drop down under its own weight and hopefully lock.

Crossing the sahara would be no problem if the a/c has the ETOPS kit - 757s cross the atlantic regularly. Otherwise just go down through Egypt, Sudan keeping within an hour's flight of Cairo, Khartoum, Addis and so forth.

At typical ldg wt the book says you need about 1450 metres - 4750 feet - of rwy for landing. In practice it will stop in about 1100 m in the dry if you really try. For a max wt takeoff at african temps I would think you'd need around 2400m.

more thoughts to follow

In the ultra marginal TO situation it is possible to get airborne and climb one or maybe two hundred feet whilst the a/c is in ground effect (think of it as a cushion of air between wing and ground) but then to stall. This has caused some crashes when TO has been made with wrong flap setting (747 at Nairobi many years ago for eg).

If you had ground dropping away beyond the end of the rwy you might be able to execute a dramatic recovery - brushing treetops etc could make useful copy.

Good luck with the novel.

Prb46

Can't wait for this one to hit 'Waterstones' I can tell you!

With ref to your 'Gear problem on Approach' if the a/c config. was Flap 20 (Single Engine Landing Flap setting) when the 'Gear Down' call was made and, after selection, the nosegear appeared down but not locked (i.e. No Green light & Eicas Clear but a hell of a "THUNK!" below the cockpit floor and a beam from the nosegear landing and taxylights, assuming this occurs at night), then 'a seasoned veteran' on the 75' MAY then select Flap30 because if indeed the gear wasn't down and locked then the "TOO LOW- GEAR" aural warning would sound on the GPWS. If, however, all was quiet, it would probably be an indication problem and you'd reselect Flap 20...if a Go Around was a likelyhood.

Beware going into Entebbe. I've been there 3 times in the last 2 months and hit 2 or 3 birds every time but it is probably a safer bet than trying to go around off 06 at Nairobi because even an overloaded 75' on 1 engine would struggle to Go Around from an MDA of 5500'. Remember on a 75' you can't jettison fuel to reduce your Landing weight to meet Approach/Climb performance criteria.

Performance wise, I've lifted 220 pax from U-Tapao AB in Southern Thailand to Bahrain in the teeth of the usual Sub- Himalayan Jetstreams and squeezed in full tanks which was just enough fuel for the 7H 50M flight + standard reserves, or Thumrait AB in Oman to RAF Brize Norton with 210 pax but a lot of freight was 8H 05m and both were bang on the limit of MTOW. Just an idea for your - max pax/max fuel endurance ballpark figure.
For distance check the length of the runway 14/32 at Umea, Northern Sweden (ESNU). I've taken the same config'd aircraft from there to Tenerife (with approx 30T of fuel) but it is very short (6000' ish) and it was contaminated.

In a nutshell, she climbs like a homesick angel!

Hope this helps and good luck!

:ok:

Once again many thanks to you all for your replies.
Sorry not to have said thanks before but I have to work
to 'Writers time limitations!I need two days off in 28!!
I am digesting all your replies,but you have to remember I
have to dilute them slightly in the book so the general public
can understand.
As some of you are interested and you have taken the time to respond,I will give you a brief idea about the book.
It really is all about one crew working out of West Africa.
The reasons why a mixed nationality of crew are there in the first place becomes apparent from the first six chapters.
They all arrive to cover heavy maintenance on one of the national
carriers 757.
Maintenance is put back four to six weeks,so to begin with it
stays as a back up.
Within a week however,a joint agreement between the companies is made and the aircraft is brokered out.That's when
the fun begins.They head back to Europe and go all over the place,with the intention of returning To africa when they are
needed.It is the summer and the 757 is in heavy demand.
So,I just add problems for this crew all the way through.
Thus the technical questions.
The majority of the book deals with the interrelations between
the crew.Wherever they go,one disaster happens after another.
There is an engineer with them all the time,but even he get's
tired at times.
They do get their rest periods,days off are obviously wherever
they are.Back up spares etc are in Paris,with some having been
taken to Africa.
They finally end up in a war zone.What was supposed to be a quick in and out,ends up with a minor bird strike.At that point
the situation wasn't that bad so they delayed the flight to await
a boroscope and some new blades.But things do get worse and they get trapped in their hotel and parts don't arrive.
That's when they decide to just go,hence on this occasion my
question about aborting before V1.
So most is about the talk between the crew.The capt has found someone to take the steps away.Leaps into the cabin,tells
the purser to close up,straight into the flight deck and fairly
jumps into his seat,straps up,and then straight away says
'lets go'.It is after all fiction.
It's just I want to be as accurate with the calls and performance
to make it realistic.That's why the questions.Haven't started
on autoland,GPS,HF yet but they will come.
Dusk2Dawn
Title is very boring
PAT 101
Based on flight number in last chapter.
It will have a very nice picture of the 757-200 leaving the
war zone just as it starts to rotate.
Book will be in paperback and around 370 pages.
Well I better get back to chapter 16,which you will be pleased
to know has no flying,so no more questions for a while.
Sorry if I have bored anyone