Boeing Brilliance - Sometimes I am just amazed that Airbus is even in existence
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Boeing Brilliance - Sometimes I am just amazed that Airbus is even in existence
Boeing to send 270 jobs abroad
Seattle Times 06/12/03
author: Dominic Gates
(Copyright 2003)
On a day when legislators in Olympia scrambled to secure jobs with a huge Boeing 7E7 incentive package, some 400 Boeing technical employees in Seattle learned two-thirds of their jobs will be outsourced abroad.
One element of the move, according to a Boeing document, is to support the "global partner base" for the planned 7E7 jetliner.
The affected employees work in the Duwamish buildings south of Boeing's former corporate headquarters in Seattle. They produce technical publications Boeing provides to its airline customers, including maintenance manuals and service bulletins.
"After careful study, we've decided to change the long-term business model for that work by transferring it to companies with a lower cost base," said Boeing spokeswoman Jill Langer.
The first layoff notices are already going out, and the work will begin to move out in the fourth quarter of this year. Additional layoffs will follow over the next two years, with a loss of about 270 jobs here.
"We have to lower our cost of doing business," said Langer, "It's simply a reflection of the harsh business realities."
Additionally, Langer said, Boeing is studying other areas of fleet services and support for potential cost savings. Outsourcing of work in these areas may be considered.
"This is extremely disturbing news," said Bill Dugovich, spokesman for the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), which represents many of the workers. "There are indications that it could be more than 400 jobs."
The plan for the technical-publications unit is to transfer much of the work initially to Continental DataGraphics, a Boeing subsidiary acquired in 2000 with units in England and in Rancho Cucamonga, Calif. The subsidiary will help to spin off the work to one or more overseas suppliers.
Boeing is considering Chile as one possible location.
The new business model Boeing has in mind is one in which all airlines would agree to use standard technical manuals rather than customize them themselves for their own mechanics. Boeing is seeking to bring in industry partners to help create standards for the manuals. Boeing would oversee the work, but the partners would do much of the production.
In a recent interview, Mike Bair, head of the 7E7 program, cited the technical manuals as an example of maintenance services that might be more efficient to outsource.
"It's unlikely we would physically do the maintenance," Bair said, "but there are traditionally schemes where we could manage it."
In justifying outsourcing, Boeing routinely refers to its desire to become a "systems integrator," assigning itself a role of system management and oversight of work done by global partners.
An e-mail from Rich Higgins, vice president of Boeing's Maintenance Engineering and Publications, to employees yesterday said "this change will result in a smaller Boeing work force focused on the most complex, value-added engineering portions of our process."
Langer confirmed that in addition to the outsourcing of technical publications, Boeing is studying ways to get "leaner" in a range of other aviation services.
These include dealing with airline in-service-fleet problems; sending routine technical service Telex messages; measuring service performance; and maintaining relationships with both suppliers and airline customers.
Boeing is using General Electric as a model for outsourcing of its technical publishing. GE partners with Adexus, a publishing company based in Santiago, Chile.
A presentation to Boeing managers yesterday included GE data on "worldwide business-cost assessments." The United States was second only to Japan in terms of high costs.
Chile, which ranked 26th, came out as the best outsourcing prospect in a scoring of various factors. Though it scored low in English fluency, it made up for it in other areas, including low investment requirements and low cost.
Boeing insists the quality of technical-service publications that it provides will be maintained. "Boeing stands behind that 100 percent," Langer said.
Thats like having a french person write a recipe for apple pie
Seattle Times 06/12/03
author: Dominic Gates
(Copyright 2003)
On a day when legislators in Olympia scrambled to secure jobs with a huge Boeing 7E7 incentive package, some 400 Boeing technical employees in Seattle learned two-thirds of their jobs will be outsourced abroad.
One element of the move, according to a Boeing document, is to support the "global partner base" for the planned 7E7 jetliner.
The affected employees work in the Duwamish buildings south of Boeing's former corporate headquarters in Seattle. They produce technical publications Boeing provides to its airline customers, including maintenance manuals and service bulletins.
"After careful study, we've decided to change the long-term business model for that work by transferring it to companies with a lower cost base," said Boeing spokeswoman Jill Langer.
The first layoff notices are already going out, and the work will begin to move out in the fourth quarter of this year. Additional layoffs will follow over the next two years, with a loss of about 270 jobs here.
"We have to lower our cost of doing business," said Langer, "It's simply a reflection of the harsh business realities."
Additionally, Langer said, Boeing is studying other areas of fleet services and support for potential cost savings. Outsourcing of work in these areas may be considered.
"This is extremely disturbing news," said Bill Dugovich, spokesman for the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), which represents many of the workers. "There are indications that it could be more than 400 jobs."
The plan for the technical-publications unit is to transfer much of the work initially to Continental DataGraphics, a Boeing subsidiary acquired in 2000 with units in England and in Rancho Cucamonga, Calif. The subsidiary will help to spin off the work to one or more overseas suppliers.
Boeing is considering Chile as one possible location.
The new business model Boeing has in mind is one in which all airlines would agree to use standard technical manuals rather than customize them themselves for their own mechanics. Boeing is seeking to bring in industry partners to help create standards for the manuals. Boeing would oversee the work, but the partners would do much of the production.
In a recent interview, Mike Bair, head of the 7E7 program, cited the technical manuals as an example of maintenance services that might be more efficient to outsource.
"It's unlikely we would physically do the maintenance," Bair said, "but there are traditionally schemes where we could manage it."
In justifying outsourcing, Boeing routinely refers to its desire to become a "systems integrator," assigning itself a role of system management and oversight of work done by global partners.
An e-mail from Rich Higgins, vice president of Boeing's Maintenance Engineering and Publications, to employees yesterday said "this change will result in a smaller Boeing work force focused on the most complex, value-added engineering portions of our process."
Langer confirmed that in addition to the outsourcing of technical publications, Boeing is studying ways to get "leaner" in a range of other aviation services.
These include dealing with airline in-service-fleet problems; sending routine technical service Telex messages; measuring service performance; and maintaining relationships with both suppliers and airline customers.
Boeing is using General Electric as a model for outsourcing of its technical publishing. GE partners with Adexus, a publishing company based in Santiago, Chile.
A presentation to Boeing managers yesterday included GE data on "worldwide business-cost assessments." The United States was second only to Japan in terms of high costs.
Chile, which ranked 26th, came out as the best outsourcing prospect in a scoring of various factors. Though it scored low in English fluency, it made up for it in other areas, including low investment requirements and low cost.
Boeing insists the quality of technical-service publications that it provides will be maintained. "Boeing stands behind that 100 percent," Langer said.
Thats like having a french person write a recipe for apple pie
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Scored low on English?!
Oh men!
Here we go, one more airplane manual that no one will understand. I don't know you guys, but out here in the US, some of the manual provided by the airlines to the pilots make no sense. I have personally seen this with the Embraer ERJ-145 manuals. Sometimes you just have to guess what they are trying to explain.
Good luck to all.
Here we go, one more airplane manual that no one will understand. I don't know you guys, but out here in the US, some of the manual provided by the airlines to the pilots make no sense. I have personally seen this with the Embraer ERJ-145 manuals. Sometimes you just have to guess what they are trying to explain.
Good luck to all.
I call you back
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Racism
Why is it in your country anti-African American racism and anti-semetic racism is ( correctly ) illegal and punishable yet anti-french racism is ok? Also to the moderators of this board the same question?
This post will be the censored one not 747's post with the offensive postscript.
This post will be the censored one not 747's post with the offensive postscript.
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Wow.
Didn't know French folks were a different race. Black. Caucasian. Asian. Indian. French.
That explains alot!
PT
By the way, I've had some might fine French apple desserts. Of course thay have a different name for them. Must be a "racial" ethnic thing.
Didn't know French folks were a different race. Black. Caucasian. Asian. Indian. French.
That explains alot!
PT
By the way, I've had some might fine French apple desserts. Of course thay have a different name for them. Must be a "racial" ethnic thing.
I call you back
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Race
(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
race (PEOPLE) noun [C][U]
a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group:
People of many different races were living side by side.
Discrimination on grounds of race will not be tolerated.
An increasing number of people in the country are of mixed race (= with parents of different races).
race group noun [C]
a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc:
LITERARY The British are an island race.
The above definition is from the Cambridge dictionary online.
race (PEOPLE) noun [C][U]
a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group:
People of many different races were living side by side.
Discrimination on grounds of race will not be tolerated.
An increasing number of people in the country are of mixed race (= with parents of different races).
race group noun [C]
a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc:
LITERARY The British are an island race.
The above definition is from the Cambridge dictionary online.
Iconoclast
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Hindsight means you are looking at your own ass.
This action by Boeing is really stupid. In preparing technical publications the tech writer has to have direct contact with engineering, product support, and flight test as well as several other involved departments. When I worked on the A-310 program I questioned the technical writers about the lack of technical detail in the repair manuals. The lead tech writer told me that ATA-100 the manual that governs the writing of technical manuals allows the writer to put in as much or as little information and associated illustrations as the writer wanted to include. This caused the mechanic to assume a lot in the repair and return to service because the lack of technical content. The reason for this was a means of cutting costs. The manuals are provided to the airlines at no cost and so many sets of manuals are delivered with each aircraft so the less technical content the lower the cost to the manufacturer. I can only assume that Boeing is cutting costs by offloading the program to Chili and at the same time providing less technical content in the manuals.
Aviation manuals have to be written using “Aviation English” but to use this language the writer has to have strong English skills.
I can understand Boeing wanting to deliver a standard manual to each of its’ clients but not all aircraft of a given type have the same equipment installed to include differing engine types so it would be difficult to impose this requirement on the operators.
Aviation manuals have to be written using “Aviation English” but to use this language the writer has to have strong English skills.
I can understand Boeing wanting to deliver a standard manual to each of its’ clients but not all aircraft of a given type have the same equipment installed to include differing engine types so it would be difficult to impose this requirement on the operators.
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Faire d'income
The only race question in this thread is the one you are bringing in to it - without good reason.
.......is not a racist remark. It is simply a quip. Millions of people make them every day - including you unless you have no sense of humour.
So..........if you cannot offer something of interest to the thread I suggest you ignore it.
The only race question in this thread is the one you are bringing in to it - without good reason.
Thats like having a french person write a recipe for apple pie
So..........if you cannot offer something of interest to the thread I suggest you ignore it.
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Perhaps Mr 747F [no bias meant of course] might realise that Airbus is a conglomerate of the EC so why not slag off "roast beef" as well.
There is "sense of humour" but the current piss taking of anything French is paranoia pending the day that there were no WMD and the sole purpose was to steal a coverted oilfield or two.
Get real USA and use your own oil reserves and apples.
There is "sense of humour" but the current piss taking of anything French is paranoia pending the day that there were no WMD and the sole purpose was to steal a coverted oilfield or two.
Get real USA and use your own oil reserves and apples.
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Okay then PPrune Pop.
In support of Faire d'income, I would like to make a quip that 'that's like expecting Americans to understand that they too live in a global market' - time to wake up and smell the coffee y'all.
Tens of thousands of US jobs will be going to China, South America etc over the next few years, because the cost of production in the US is way too uncompetitive.
Modern technology makes outsourcing only too easy and the stockholders care about the bottom line.
But hey, that's free enterprise for you.
In support of Faire d'income, I would like to make a quip that 'that's like expecting Americans to understand that they too live in a global market' - time to wake up and smell the coffee y'all.
Tens of thousands of US jobs will be going to China, South America etc over the next few years, because the cost of production in the US is way too uncompetitive.
Modern technology makes outsourcing only too easy and the stockholders care about the bottom line.
But hey, that's free enterprise for you.
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Since when was Indian a different race from Asian? Or did he mean Native American? Must be that inability to speak proper English that seems to be so funny. Tell me, when will Americans be able to speak and spell in English?
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Remember after 911 when Americans started shooting the odd Hindu because they had no idea they were different from muslims. 
They aren't the sharpest people on the planet so if they want to try and be funny the rest of you should let them. Airbus are in existence because Boeing have done a p*ss poor job at retaining market share. And selling, sorry, leasing aging 767's to the US Airforce at 300 million each using taxpayers money to prop up a rudderless company is about as bad as the joke gets.
They aren't the sharpest people on the planet so if they want to try and be funny the rest of you should let them. Airbus are in existence because Boeing have done a p*ss poor job at retaining market share. And selling, sorry, leasing aging 767's to the US Airforce at 300 million each using taxpayers money to prop up a rudderless company is about as bad as the joke gets.
Iconoclast
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Mirror mirror on the wall.....
If so many of you from OZ, NZ, the UK and Europe find so much wrong with the United States why oh why are so many of you trying to emigrate to the States to find work?
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witchdoctor
"Since when was Indian a different race from Asian?"
I am no physician. But, at least I can tell the difference between someone from India and a Korean. Do you need a little help?
For your own edification, the term "Indian" was originally misapplied to the Native North American by the early British settlers: They believed they resembled the peoples of that nation.
The racial classification "Indian" does not apply to the "Native American".
Learn to read. Engage brain before mouth.
stillalbatross
Your exquisite commentary speaks for itself. Your logic is impeccably obtuse. Your views on how we choose to finance/buy aircraft is of little concern to me. I suggest you figure out how to get your own Euro Airlifter in the air before your C-17 leases come due. How'd that feel? It was a cheap shot, just like your post. Sorry to get in the gutter with you my friend.
It is obviously your inabilty to deal with your own personal issues that drives your thinking. That, or you are 11 years old.
PT
"Since when was Indian a different race from Asian?"
I am no physician. But, at least I can tell the difference between someone from India and a Korean. Do you need a little help?
For your own edification, the term "Indian" was originally misapplied to the Native North American by the early British settlers: They believed they resembled the peoples of that nation.
The racial classification "Indian" does not apply to the "Native American".
Learn to read. Engage brain before mouth.
stillalbatross
Your exquisite commentary speaks for itself. Your logic is impeccably obtuse. Your views on how we choose to finance/buy aircraft is of little concern to me. I suggest you figure out how to get your own Euro Airlifter in the air before your C-17 leases come due. How'd that feel? It was a cheap shot, just like your post. Sorry to get in the gutter with you my friend.
It is obviously your inabilty to deal with your own personal issues that drives your thinking. That, or you are 11 years old.
PT
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My god. Prune Pop was correct, I meant no racism toward anybody with the quip regarding the French and apple pie comment. But, once again, it would appear their tendancy to be cranky is rearing it's ugly head.
DSR10,
Maybe now you understand why gas is $1.15 in the USA.
witchdoctor,
enough is enough, stop playin the 911 card. It's over, let it go.
Lu Zuckerman,
exactly! Anybody who can run, jump or swim is trying to get here so they can bask in the beauty of freedom(and hate every bit of it) and wait for the US govt to buy them a gas station or a 7 eleven(with tax payer money).
DSR10,
Maybe now you understand why gas is $1.15 in the USA.
witchdoctor,
enough is enough, stop playin the 911 card. It's over, let it go.
Lu Zuckerman,
exactly! Anybody who can run, jump or swim is trying to get here so they can bask in the beauty of freedom(and hate every bit of it) and wait for the US govt to buy them a gas station or a 7 eleven(with tax payer money).
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Planetruth, whatever. It was Senator John McCain who firstly asked why on the question of Boeing, the military and the overpriced 767s and then asked how they could bleat endlessly to Congress about Airbus and govt sudsidies.
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For the last time. NO racist remarks are necessary. And I heartily agree with 747, that 9/11 should NOT be used to stress ANY points. We remember it each in our own way.
I think this actually a good thread for debate. So, I will leave it to see if those with the good sense shown thus far can keep it going. Otherwise it goes in the bin!
Now enjoy it please.
I think this actually a good thread for debate. So, I will leave it to see if those with the good sense shown thus far can keep it going. Otherwise it goes in the bin!
Now enjoy it please.
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stillalbatross,
Sir, we agree.
McCain's point was valid. I agree completely that the lease arrangement is a dumb idea. Pay for the damned things and be done with it. Problem is, with this War on Terror sucking up some cash, the only way Congress would approve the appropriation for the full complement of aircraft (which we desperately need) was to go wil the lease arrangement. And they did so begrudgingly.
There is also NO argument whatsoever that each country MUST support it's own Military Industrial Complex. To buy arrows for your quiver from a less than reliable source compromises your security.
(By the way, the above point is one of the few points Senator McCain and I agree on. His run for President was one of the greatest shams foisted on the U.S. voter. The man is an egotistical loose cannon who is despised by much of his home base in Arizona and only got religion after the polls closed.
A coworker showed up to pick the good senator up in a DEA Citation one day for a big press arrival in Flagstaff after a fortuitous drug bust. Arriving an hour and a half late with no excuse, the senator was greeted by my friend as he approached the plane. The good senator brushed off his welcome with the comment, "Just don't kill me would you?"
That would endear the good senator to any pilot I would think. Schmuck! I'd have gotten one of those unfortunate "instant ear blocks" and made him drive to the press conference!)
PPRuNe Pop: "Now enjoy it please."
Yes Sir.
PT
Sir, we agree.
McCain's point was valid. I agree completely that the lease arrangement is a dumb idea. Pay for the damned things and be done with it. Problem is, with this War on Terror sucking up some cash, the only way Congress would approve the appropriation for the full complement of aircraft (which we desperately need) was to go wil the lease arrangement. And they did so begrudgingly.
There is also NO argument whatsoever that each country MUST support it's own Military Industrial Complex. To buy arrows for your quiver from a less than reliable source compromises your security.
(By the way, the above point is one of the few points Senator McCain and I agree on. His run for President was one of the greatest shams foisted on the U.S. voter. The man is an egotistical loose cannon who is despised by much of his home base in Arizona and only got religion after the polls closed.
A coworker showed up to pick the good senator up in a DEA Citation one day for a big press arrival in Flagstaff after a fortuitous drug bust. Arriving an hour and a half late with no excuse, the senator was greeted by my friend as he approached the plane. The good senator brushed off his welcome with the comment, "Just don't kill me would you?"
That would endear the good senator to any pilot I would think. Schmuck! I'd have gotten one of those unfortunate "instant ear blocks" and made him drive to the press conference!)
PPRuNe Pop: "Now enjoy it please."
Yes Sir.
PT
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Planetruth, don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Boeing but there is an awful lot more ability and ingenuity in that company than what they're using. Watched Bullitt recently and there's a bit where Steve McQueen is chasing the bad guy underneath a few DC8s, B707, past a Convair 880 and I thought "forget consolidation, gimmee the good old days where everyone was makin' airliners"
I think that crowd that is trying to resurrect the worlds last Convair 880 to fly is from Arizona.
I think that crowd that is trying to resurrect the worlds last Convair 880 to fly is from Arizona.
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Indeed,
Believe me, on occasions there is no bigger critic of Boeing than I. I grew up flying the 737-200 in the early 80's and the Boeing engineers and tech-reps were messengers sent from On High. Their intellect and insight was uncanny. The Boeing of today is nothing like the Boeing of twenty years ago, nor could it be I suppose. I hope to hell they know what they are doing because it is unclear from the outside looking in.
The 737-700 intro was marred by a good example of their apparent intermittent ineptitude. During HUD certification films of the main tires touching down, it was observed that the mains (whose shimmy dampers were removed by Boeing reportedly to save weight) shimmied precariously. We had noticed this phenomena ourselves on the line. On landing, the plane shook "like a dog shaking off a pee." Boeings answer was that our pilots "were landing the aircraft too smoothly." The suggested a firmer touchdown. What a CROCK! When senior management saw the video, one of the VP's called Boeing and asked them to verify the safety of this aircraft as delivered. He wanted a letter stating this fact faxed within the hour. Within an hour, Boeing sent a letter stating that all new aircraft would be delivered with shimmy dampers installed. Al in-service aircraft would be retrofitted. What the heck were thay thinking? With this and a few other exceptions, the aircraft has been exceptionally trouble free. This shimmy damper issue would have never happened in the early 80's.
I have not heard about the 880, but there is a 990 in El Paso and it flew in there only about ten years ago. It is a strange bird indeed with the shock canoes on the upper wing. Ah, when the girls were single and the Jet A cheap.
At least my company will be buying a few airliners. We are scheduled to buy 400+ more between now and '12 to bring our total up to 800+. I learned one of the reasons for Boeing's move away from Seattle was the concern for volcano damage. I hauled the chief company maintenance technician out of SEA four or five years ago and he told me the last year of the construction of the -700, the whole area was on volcano watch for Ranier. I guess since St Helens blew, Ranier is now become intermittently active. He told me that computer simulations for a failure of the western face of Ranier would put the valley that Renton is in under 14 feet of ash and debris. Perhaps it is time to get your production capacity moved elsewhere. Everett is far enough North to be out of major danger, unlike Renton. I saw an article in the paper this week (Phoenix is trying to land the 7E7 facility). The article mentioned the volcano threat in Washington.
Good chatting with you,
PT.
Believe me, on occasions there is no bigger critic of Boeing than I. I grew up flying the 737-200 in the early 80's and the Boeing engineers and tech-reps were messengers sent from On High. Their intellect and insight was uncanny. The Boeing of today is nothing like the Boeing of twenty years ago, nor could it be I suppose. I hope to hell they know what they are doing because it is unclear from the outside looking in.
The 737-700 intro was marred by a good example of their apparent intermittent ineptitude. During HUD certification films of the main tires touching down, it was observed that the mains (whose shimmy dampers were removed by Boeing reportedly to save weight) shimmied precariously. We had noticed this phenomena ourselves on the line. On landing, the plane shook "like a dog shaking off a pee." Boeings answer was that our pilots "were landing the aircraft too smoothly." The suggested a firmer touchdown. What a CROCK! When senior management saw the video, one of the VP's called Boeing and asked them to verify the safety of this aircraft as delivered. He wanted a letter stating this fact faxed within the hour. Within an hour, Boeing sent a letter stating that all new aircraft would be delivered with shimmy dampers installed. Al in-service aircraft would be retrofitted. What the heck were thay thinking? With this and a few other exceptions, the aircraft has been exceptionally trouble free. This shimmy damper issue would have never happened in the early 80's.
I have not heard about the 880, but there is a 990 in El Paso and it flew in there only about ten years ago. It is a strange bird indeed with the shock canoes on the upper wing. Ah, when the girls were single and the Jet A cheap.
At least my company will be buying a few airliners. We are scheduled to buy 400+ more between now and '12 to bring our total up to 800+. I learned one of the reasons for Boeing's move away from Seattle was the concern for volcano damage. I hauled the chief company maintenance technician out of SEA four or five years ago and he told me the last year of the construction of the -700, the whole area was on volcano watch for Ranier. I guess since St Helens blew, Ranier is now become intermittently active. He told me that computer simulations for a failure of the western face of Ranier would put the valley that Renton is in under 14 feet of ash and debris. Perhaps it is time to get your production capacity moved elsewhere. Everett is far enough North to be out of major danger, unlike Renton. I saw an article in the paper this week (Phoenix is trying to land the 7E7 facility). The article mentioned the volcano threat in Washington.
Good chatting with you,
PT.
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Sorry Lu Z, but...
We are NOT all trying to get into you sadly overpolluted, overpopulated and self opinionated country.
Guess with the Boeing upheaval and Volcanic activity, they won't be heading here.
Guess with the Boeing upheaval and Volcanic activity, they won't be heading here.