Are home computer flight sims too real?
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Don't forget the distracting effects of real flying; when I did my ppl I chucked up for the first 10 hrs (no stomach; what a wuss!) and you don't get that with flight sim software!! ******s-up the concentration, it does!
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Andrew M.
Thanks for your reply. Map Shift will occur in an aircraft using IRS's (laser gyros basically) to compute its position along with updating for the FMS/FMC from VOR/DME. Its effects will be random and unpredictable. A terrorist simply using a lat/long to guide the aircraft to the target through the autopilot may come unstuck if mapshift occurs, as the aircraft will navigate itself to a point near, but not actually at the target. A trained professional jet pilot knows how to deal with this. I was simply making the point that most PC flight sims will not give the user an appreciation of this point. This is only one of many potential traps that the PC pilot will be unaware of. Therefore I'm in agreement with you that PC flight sims do not present a huge security threat.
AussieRotor.
In relation to your son,
I'm sorry, but this just makes me chuckle. As a jet instructor of more years experience than I care to remember, your post just doesn't present the truth of what I have seen and experienced throughout my career. Mind you, I have had lots of people telling me the same kind of stuff that you have, who then get in the sim and make complete fools of themselves. Interesting your son can take off and land, following an ILS approach, but has difficulty flying straight and level. It just doesn't add up. And, you say, he wasn't with an instructor - so he just knew the take-off speeds, flap retraction profile, power settings, attitudes for various phases of flight, flap extension speeds, approach profile and attitudes, gear limiting speeds and flare and landing technique intuitively did he? Oh no - let me guess - he read about it or a friend who flies the aircraft told him before he went in. And that's on three aircraft types. I'm sorry, no offence, but this doesn't correlate to what I see from professional pilots converting in the sim. Usually the "no problem" type of comment you make comes from a great lack of awareness of the kind of standards actually required.
Thanks for your reply. Map Shift will occur in an aircraft using IRS's (laser gyros basically) to compute its position along with updating for the FMS/FMC from VOR/DME. Its effects will be random and unpredictable. A terrorist simply using a lat/long to guide the aircraft to the target through the autopilot may come unstuck if mapshift occurs, as the aircraft will navigate itself to a point near, but not actually at the target. A trained professional jet pilot knows how to deal with this. I was simply making the point that most PC flight sims will not give the user an appreciation of this point. This is only one of many potential traps that the PC pilot will be unaware of. Therefore I'm in agreement with you that PC flight sims do not present a huge security threat.
AussieRotor.
In relation to your son,
Said the only difficulty he had was flying it level, but no probs with the rest.
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FS realism
I have MS Flightsimulator 2002. It can teach you some of the basics of operating an airplane, but it will not fully mimmick a real plane.
I think it is a lot harder to fly the sim than the airplane. I crash my Falcon 50 simulator pretty much every time I fly it. I have yet to crash the real thing.(Knock on wood).
I doubt a desktop sim could teach you to crash a 757 into a building at 450 Knots.
I think it is a lot harder to fly the sim than the airplane. I crash my Falcon 50 simulator pretty much every time I fly it. I have yet to crash the real thing.(Knock on wood).
I doubt a desktop sim could teach you to crash a 757 into a building at 450 Knots.
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Guys, I think those of us who are professional jet pilots should be careful about saying the PC sim is harder to fly than the real thing. This gives the impression that a snotty nosed kid well versed in FS2002 could jump in our airplanes and off he goes. We know this is not the case.
It's the flight modelling characteristics of the PC sim that might make it appear difficult to fly - ie, it doesn't respond to our inputs in the way the real aircraft we are used to flying responds. This doesn't mean it's difficult to fly. It just means the PC sim has huge limitations. Please don't confuse the two.
Spend the same amount of time flying the PC sim as you do on your real airplane, and you'll be well ahead of the untrained amateur.
And I hope we all realise this doesn't even start to touch on the ideas of "operating" an aircraft and "commanding" an aircraft crew.
It's the flight modelling characteristics of the PC sim that might make it appear difficult to fly - ie, it doesn't respond to our inputs in the way the real aircraft we are used to flying responds. This doesn't mean it's difficult to fly. It just means the PC sim has huge limitations. Please don't confuse the two.
Spend the same amount of time flying the PC sim as you do on your real airplane, and you'll be well ahead of the untrained amateur.
And I hope we all realise this doesn't even start to touch on the ideas of "operating" an aircraft and "commanding" an aircraft crew.
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When I did my initial flying training I used FS200 to great effect to help me with my scan and to help with learning to do holds and other basic intrument procedures.
FS isn't perfect by any means and neither are any of the add on packages, however they are much better than just looking at dry text and theory on a page. They give you a good impression of how the systems work in conjuction with each otherand give you good familarity with the cockpit.
We are not looking at if a flight simmer could go out jump in a B737 and go and fly the line. We are looking at if they would assist someone with basic flying skills ie a PPL to direct the aircraft in a straight line until they got to the visual segment of a terrorist attack. VOR navigation isnt brain surgery, and a long visual line up to a building could be easily practiced in FS. These guys dont need to get the aircraft into the air or get it down in one piece in bad weather, just fly in a straight line using an auto pilot and disconnect or use the heading bug in the final stages. FS can easily teach you these skills.
Who am I ? FS fan before I learnt to fly for real, and currently an B737 line pilot in the UK with ATPL.
(Still have fun with FS from time to time)
FS isn't perfect by any means and neither are any of the add on packages, however they are much better than just looking at dry text and theory on a page. They give you a good impression of how the systems work in conjuction with each otherand give you good familarity with the cockpit.
We are not looking at if a flight simmer could go out jump in a B737 and go and fly the line. We are looking at if they would assist someone with basic flying skills ie a PPL to direct the aircraft in a straight line until they got to the visual segment of a terrorist attack. VOR navigation isnt brain surgery, and a long visual line up to a building could be easily practiced in FS. These guys dont need to get the aircraft into the air or get it down in one piece in bad weather, just fly in a straight line using an auto pilot and disconnect or use the heading bug in the final stages. FS can easily teach you these skills.
Who am I ? FS fan before I learnt to fly for real, and currently an B737 line pilot in the UK with ATPL.
(Still have fun with FS from time to time)
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MAXIMUM.
I dont tell porkies.Maybe has the ability,maybe it might have been the many hours spent on p/c simulators,plus the times flying to get his PPL----------god only knows.Ive spent hours on the pc and im totally useless and always will be as ive never learnt to fly a plane.
"had trouble keeping it level"-----maybe he should have used auto pilot.On approach didnt have probs,and never had probs keeping level on pc ,so theres one thing that he finds harder.
Actually i want him to get a flight examiner to check him out for curiosity ,but this is hard fdor 2 reasons-------they have gone home by then ,plus i dont think hes meant to be in them in the first place.
I dont tell porkies.Maybe has the ability,maybe it might have been the many hours spent on p/c simulators,plus the times flying to get his PPL----------god only knows.Ive spent hours on the pc and im totally useless and always will be as ive never learnt to fly a plane.
"had trouble keeping it level"-----maybe he should have used auto pilot.On approach didnt have probs,and never had probs keeping level on pc ,so theres one thing that he finds harder.
Actually i want him to get a flight examiner to check him out for curiosity ,but this is hard fdor 2 reasons-------they have gone home by then ,plus i dont think hes meant to be in them in the first place.
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Hello.
I have just turned 14, and I have been using FS2002 seriously since October 2002. I have around 750 hours in my logbook, with 380 of those being with BA Virtual.
So, the original question: Is FS too real?
Firstly, I'm guessing you havent seen the previews of the new version, of which I am a beta tester for. The whole FS world has changed so dramatically over the last two years, it's unbelievable.
When i flew to AMS last July on KLMuk, I visited the Captain before the flight. I asked him if he had flown anything else comercially, he said he'd flown the 734. Click. The Dreamfleet 737 is a package with crew calls, FA Calls, a damm realistic panel and sounds, with an equally good visual model.
When i asked the Captain if he had heard of Dreamfleet, he said he had. He said that it was basically spot on compared to the real thing. Just goes to show exactly how far it has come.
One other factor could be 3rd party sceneries. As you FS flyers will know, the default MS sceneries that come with the game are basic to say the least. The add-on sceneries for Heathrow, Los Angeles, Frankfurt etc that are a mixture of pay and freeware add to the realism.
Personally, I find it very easy to land a 767 in FS. Simply set the ILS up, leave it in until 1000ft, take everything out, switch to the Captains perspective landing view, and then keep her at a good angle, retard the throttles and then raise the nose one or two degrees and bang - welcome to Heathrow.
I have been talking to a Britannia 757/767 pilot recently, I told him about all the various things we have available to us. Like the monthly AIRAC cycle updates, Flight planning website which calculates fuel, time, maps etc.
VATSIM (The online ATC thing) adds to the realism again. For example, you can EGLL_V_TWR, Heathrow voice tower, even the instructions they give are based on the real world. Same with all the SID and STAR procedures in the FMC with PSS addons & 767PIC etc.
Say ATC said : Speedbird 999, be level 7000ft, 5nm before Biggin." All a PIC pilot would have to do is to make an arc on the display by going to the FIX page of the FMC, putting the FIX in, then the '/5' for the arc distance, then adjust the FMC to automatically calculate the descent, or use the VS - simple.
I wish there was a TV programme too, it'd be awesome to see the comparison between the two.
Henry
I have just turned 14, and I have been using FS2002 seriously since October 2002. I have around 750 hours in my logbook, with 380 of those being with BA Virtual.
So, the original question: Is FS too real?
Firstly, I'm guessing you havent seen the previews of the new version, of which I am a beta tester for. The whole FS world has changed so dramatically over the last two years, it's unbelievable.
When i flew to AMS last July on KLMuk, I visited the Captain before the flight. I asked him if he had flown anything else comercially, he said he'd flown the 734. Click. The Dreamfleet 737 is a package with crew calls, FA Calls, a damm realistic panel and sounds, with an equally good visual model.
When i asked the Captain if he had heard of Dreamfleet, he said he had. He said that it was basically spot on compared to the real thing. Just goes to show exactly how far it has come.
One other factor could be 3rd party sceneries. As you FS flyers will know, the default MS sceneries that come with the game are basic to say the least. The add-on sceneries for Heathrow, Los Angeles, Frankfurt etc that are a mixture of pay and freeware add to the realism.
Personally, I find it very easy to land a 767 in FS. Simply set the ILS up, leave it in until 1000ft, take everything out, switch to the Captains perspective landing view, and then keep her at a good angle, retard the throttles and then raise the nose one or two degrees and bang - welcome to Heathrow.
I have been talking to a Britannia 757/767 pilot recently, I told him about all the various things we have available to us. Like the monthly AIRAC cycle updates, Flight planning website which calculates fuel, time, maps etc.
VATSIM (The online ATC thing) adds to the realism again. For example, you can EGLL_V_TWR, Heathrow voice tower, even the instructions they give are based on the real world. Same with all the SID and STAR procedures in the FMC with PSS addons & 767PIC etc.
Say ATC said : Speedbird 999, be level 7000ft, 5nm before Biggin." All a PIC pilot would have to do is to make an arc on the display by going to the FIX page of the FMC, putting the FIX in, then the '/5' for the arc distance, then adjust the FMC to automatically calculate the descent, or use the VS - simple.
I wish there was a TV programme too, it'd be awesome to see the comparison between the two.
Henry
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BA777
I too, am a young flight simmer who really wants to get somewhere into real aviation. I have made an attempt at this, and hopefully this year after getting a job I plan to start a real PPL.
I do appreciate what you say, but the way you described ...
... is idealistic to be honest. I, do not think I could manage on a real sim, let alone a real aircraft ! I think that the sheer size of the flightdeck would be quite intimidating. Remember even if you use a 21" monitor (biggest CRT or LCD in my knowledge, before you get to projectors) then the actual spread of the instruments for the scan is still much larger. Also, the throttles, speedbrakes and flap levers too.
Yes, flight sims are getting better. But unless you use a full motion flight sim ( that is $10 million as compared to say $100) then sims are not entirely useless, as you do get ahead of the average man. However, I would never question the knowledge of a real ATCO or pilot.
We can get a small head start using sims, that is about all. It is good to show determination and interest though, and keeps the interest alive. Hope you manage to get some real hours under your belt; you will love it.
If you have Sky Digital satellite, or cable you may receive Discovery Wings - great channel, and some shows are reasonable too. Flightdeck was a good series - but getting a little dated now, as is the rest of the programming.
As you are interested in ATC, look for a great programe called Air Traffic Control - Too complex for humans ? (simple, and obvious title eh ?
) and that was a good programme.
Best regards,
PS: Harder to fly the real thing ?
Well, real flying and sim flying is two different things. Learning one is bad for the other in my own opinion. Sim flying is ok yes, but if you go real flying then do not take what you learn sim flying and apply it to real life flying - and vice versa. I think that demonstrates the usefulness of a off-the-shelve product.
The elite flight simulator, as seen in Transair at £4000 may be of limited use though.....
I too, am a young flight simmer who really wants to get somewhere into real aviation. I have made an attempt at this, and hopefully this year after getting a job I plan to start a real PPL.
I do appreciate what you say, but the way you described ...
Say ATC said : Speedbird 999, be level 7000ft, 5nm before Biggin." All a PIC pilot would have to do is to make an arc on the display by going to the FIX page of the FMC, putting the FIX in, then the '/5' for the arc distance, then adjust the FMC to automatically calculate the descent, or use the VS - simple.
Yes, flight sims are getting better. But unless you use a full motion flight sim ( that is $10 million as compared to say $100) then sims are not entirely useless, as you do get ahead of the average man. However, I would never question the knowledge of a real ATCO or pilot.
We can get a small head start using sims, that is about all. It is good to show determination and interest though, and keeps the interest alive. Hope you manage to get some real hours under your belt; you will love it.
I wish there was a TV programme too, it'd be awesome to see the comparison between the two.
As you are interested in ATC, look for a great programe called Air Traffic Control - Too complex for humans ? (simple, and obvious title eh ?
) and that was a good programme.Best regards,
PS: Harder to fly the real thing ?
Well, real flying and sim flying is two different things. Learning one is bad for the other in my own opinion. Sim flying is ok yes, but if you go real flying then do not take what you learn sim flying and apply it to real life flying - and vice versa. I think that demonstrates the usefulness of a off-the-shelve product.
The elite flight simulator, as seen in Transair at £4000 may be of limited use though.....
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I think Maximum has basically hit the nail on the head here. Everyone should re-read his posts. Flying the real thing IS more difficult than the the any PC based sim.
I too have fallen into that trap. I do actually have difficulty landing PC aircraft, largely due, I think, to the relative lack of visual cues which we use for the real thing and to some extent the lack of feel in the controls compared to a real aircraft. That is common with many real pilots attempting to land PC sims.
But apart from that, flying a PC no matter how accurately the it replicates anything is quite simply easy. The real skills involved in flying PC sims is in mastering it's add on complexities which simulate that of full size aircraft but don't replicate them.
There is almost no comparsion to real world operations. Maximum's scepticism about Aussierotor's son apparent lack of difficulty except straight and level highlights.
Quote "so he just knew the take-off speeds, flap retraction profile, power settings, attitudes for various phases of flight, flap extension speeds, approach profile and attitudes, gear limiting speeds and flare and landing technique intuitively did he? Oh no - let me guess - he read about it or a friend who flies the aircraft told him before he went in. And that's on three aircraft types. I'm sorry, no offence, but this doesn't correlate to what I see from professional pilots converting in the sim. .Usually the "no problem" type of comment you make comes from a great lack of awareness of the kind of standards actually required."
Sorry Aussierotor I'm not picking on you, but that's the truth of it.
The last sentence being the crux of it. Ask any pilot who moved from even a turboprop onto line training on jets and they'll tell you it's hard and many a pilot has fallen at this hurdle. These being experienced pilots too.
Many airline pilots trying out a PC sim, will sit down at at tiny monitor with a bitty plastic control yoke, have a go at flying the virtual aeroplane, make a shambles of it and declare: 'Gaaah it's harder than the real thing.' Forgetting that it took many hours to perfect their skills in the real thing. Sims are the same as anything, you have to spend time learning the tricks of the trade before you become any good.
PC based flight sims can help. I wish they were around when I started flying but they are certainly no substitute for real world flying and can be misleading to the uninitiated.
As for terrorists, the basics of flying is they needed. Any PPL could do what they did.
I think Maximum has basically hit the nail on the head here. Everyone should re-read his posts. Flying the real thing IS more difficult than the the any PC based sim.
I too have fallen into that trap. I do actually have difficulty landing PC aircraft, largely due, I think, to the relative lack of visual cues which we use for the real thing and to some extent the lack of feel in the controls compared to a real aircraft. That is common with many real pilots attempting to land PC sims.
But apart from that, flying a PC no matter how accurately the it replicates anything is quite simply easy. The real skills involved in flying PC sims is in mastering it's add on comple
I too have fallen into that trap. I do actually have difficulty landing PC aircraft, largely due, I think, to the relative lack of visual cues which we use for the real thing and to some extent the lack of feel in the controls compared to a real aircraft. That is common with many real pilots attempting to land PC sims.
But apart from that, flying a PC no matter how accurately the it replicates anything is quite simply easy. The real skills involved in flying PC sims is in mastering it's add on complexities which simulate that of full size aircraft but don't replicate them.
There is almost no comparsion to real world operations. Maximum's scepticism about Aussierotor's son apparent lack of difficulty except straight and level highlights.
Quote "so he just knew the take-off speeds, flap retraction profile, power settings, attitudes for various phases of flight, flap extension speeds, approach profile and attitudes, gear limiting speeds and flare and landing technique intuitively did he? Oh no - let me guess - he read about it or a friend who flies the aircraft told him before he went in. And that's on three aircraft types. I'm sorry, no offence, but this doesn't correlate to what I see from professional pilots converting in the sim. .Usually the "no problem" type of comment you make comes from a great lack of awareness of the kind of standards actually required."
Sorry Aussierotor I'm not picking on you, but that's the truth of it.
The last sentence being the crux of it. Ask any pilot who moved from even a turboprop onto line training on jets and they'll tell you it's hard and many a pilot has fallen at this hurdle. These being experienced pilots too.
Many airline pilots trying out a PC sim, will sit down at at tiny monitor with a bitty plastic control yoke, have a go at flying the virtual aeroplane, make a shambles of it and declare: 'Gaaah it's harder than the real thing.' Forgetting that it took many hours to perfect their skills in the real thing. Sims are the same as anything, you have to spend time learning the tricks of the trade before you become any good.
PC based flight sims can help. I wish they were around when I started flying but they are certainly no substitute for real world flying and can be misleading to the uninitiated.
As for terrorists, the basics of flying is they needed. Any PPL could do what they did.
I think Maximum has basically hit the nail on the head here. Everyone should re-read his posts. Flying the real thing IS more difficult than the the any PC based sim.
I too have fallen into that trap. I do actually have difficulty landing PC aircraft, largely due, I think, to the relative lack of visual cues which we use for the real thing and to some extent the lack of feel in the controls compared to a real aircraft. That is common with many real pilots attempting to land PC sims.
But apart from that, flying a PC no matter how accurately the it replicates anything is quite simply easy. The real skills involved in flying PC sims is in mastering it's add on comple
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I'm going to stick my head in the proverbial 'lion's mouth' here and ask this question...
How many people take PC Flight Simulators too seriously?
I'm not out to belittle the knowledge that some of us have, but just because I have a DC-7C manual on my mantle, it doesn't mean I can fly it...
Yes, in my younger days I wanted to pursue a career as pilot but life took me in a different direction. I did put quite a few hours towards a PPL and did have several, fortunate, opportunities to spend time in a full motion simulator for a major US airline (back in the days when airports were friendly and welcoming)... But I would never presume, that given a disasterous situation, I could just run up to the cockpit and suddenly become Karen Black.
I have FS2002 installed on my computer at home, but no matter how 'complex' the software may be, it's still a game. (I cannot help but recall a recent 'Simpsons' episode where Homer tried to pack the car with garage sale purchases because he was good at 'Tetris').
I can sit at my desk and 'fly' a 12-hour flight, but no matter how accurate a PC setup is, I think it's safe to say that it's trivial in comparison to someone who is able to control hundreds of tons of aluminum, fuel and flesh through the air, and where there is no option of a pop-up window to ask if you want to 'try again' should something go wrong.
Before fingers start flying across keyboards, I will agree that the basics of certain skills can be learned through this method, but only to be refined in a more controlled and realistic environment.
I can't help but wonder if this type of discussion took place when 'Flying the Big Jets' was first published?
William
How many people take PC Flight Simulators too seriously?
I'm not out to belittle the knowledge that some of us have, but just because I have a DC-7C manual on my mantle, it doesn't mean I can fly it...
Yes, in my younger days I wanted to pursue a career as pilot but life took me in a different direction. I did put quite a few hours towards a PPL and did have several, fortunate, opportunities to spend time in a full motion simulator for a major US airline (back in the days when airports were friendly and welcoming)... But I would never presume, that given a disasterous situation, I could just run up to the cockpit and suddenly become Karen Black.
I have FS2002 installed on my computer at home, but no matter how 'complex' the software may be, it's still a game. (I cannot help but recall a recent 'Simpsons' episode where Homer tried to pack the car with garage sale purchases because he was good at 'Tetris').
I can sit at my desk and 'fly' a 12-hour flight, but no matter how accurate a PC setup is, I think it's safe to say that it's trivial in comparison to someone who is able to control hundreds of tons of aluminum, fuel and flesh through the air, and where there is no option of a pop-up window to ask if you want to 'try again' should something go wrong.
Before fingers start flying across keyboards, I will agree that the basics of certain skills can be learned through this method, but only to be refined in a more controlled and realistic environment.
I can't help but wonder if this type of discussion took place when 'Flying the Big Jets' was first published?
William
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CORSAIR,
I wasnt talking about getting into the cockpit of a real 747.
I totally agree that sims havent the real feel .
However most sims do come with instructions ,landing speeds settings etc ,and over many years playing you soon learn to get things right.
Plus the younger generation are brought up on computers ,games ,sims etc.Ask a 10 year old to find or sort out a problem on a puter to find out.
Im only good on rally or F1 sims but that took ages.Son could beat me in 30 minutes before he had his licence.
Getting back to the story ,i was stating what happened.
Im only assuming airline simulators are as close to the Real thing as possible.
PPL ,years on a pc simulator plus his love affair with aviation(maybe he has read speeds etc) would have helped.
Im not saying if a check flight guy was there he would have said "great job ,heres a payrise or you can keep your job" and the NO PROBLEMS comment was on a successful flight etc.,although not 100% perfect ,but didnt come to grief.
Sure ,the pressures off because if you come a gutser you can open the door and walk away-----definately not like the real thing.
Suppose age has got nothing to do with it but hes 23 ,not 10.
Whatever ,he managed it and so be it .When the opportunity arises he is going for the 767 so will keep you posted.
And yes ,i know to be a pilot you need lots of EXPERIENCE in the real world
I wasnt talking about getting into the cockpit of a real 747.
I totally agree that sims havent the real feel .
However most sims do come with instructions ,landing speeds settings etc ,and over many years playing you soon learn to get things right.
Plus the younger generation are brought up on computers ,games ,sims etc.Ask a 10 year old to find or sort out a problem on a puter to find out.
Im only good on rally or F1 sims but that took ages.Son could beat me in 30 minutes before he had his licence.
Getting back to the story ,i was stating what happened.
Im only assuming airline simulators are as close to the Real thing as possible.
PPL ,years on a pc simulator plus his love affair with aviation(maybe he has read speeds etc) would have helped.
Im not saying if a check flight guy was there he would have said "great job ,heres a payrise or you can keep your job" and the NO PROBLEMS comment was on a successful flight etc.,although not 100% perfect ,but didnt come to grief.
Sure ,the pressures off because if you come a gutser you can open the door and walk away-----definately not like the real thing.
Suppose age has got nothing to do with it but hes 23 ,not 10.
Whatever ,he managed it and so be it .When the opportunity arises he is going for the 767 so will keep you posted.
And yes ,i know to be a pilot you need lots of EXPERIENCE in the real world
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How many people take PC Flight Simulators too seriously?
I have flew flight sims for the last 1 year, got connected to VATSIM immedately after getting my own internet connection installed (yep, age 16 and paying a phone bill
) and I would say that I have learned a little knowledge - not enough to take up a real position in Tower or in an aircraft - but the enjoyment from flying the sims has increased.Although indeed, there are real pilots and ATCO's who are members of the ATC group (one of the two groups that exist) and yet I do not think they take it seriously either.
You cannot say why do you do the real flight during the day, then having some quite fun on a Sunday you take the virtual flight - is it not boring doing the same thing twice ? Well, no ! Of course, taking the real flight and the virtual flight is two different things.
Same for ATCO's. "Why do you want to control virtually when you have did it for real during the day ?" - An answer could be, again, "For fun".
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I saw WHBM's comments regarding the lack of depth perception on a flight sim setup.
Whether it's good bad or indifferent, I suspect that the 9/11 hijackers were not that concerned about "flaring" of the aircraft.
Whether it's good bad or indifferent, I suspect that the 9/11 hijackers were not that concerned about "flaring" of the aircraft.
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Are home computer flight sims too real?
Hi JoshuaCT,
Having followed this thread I'm prompted to say that my personal perception of the terrorist threat around commercial airliners is that such aircraft are at greater risk of being brought down by shoulder-launched SAM than being hi-jacked and used as on 9/11 - at least in nations where commercial airport security is good.
The US Department of Homeland Security is reported to have been tasked with preparing a plan detailing whether and how missile countermeasures and protection systems can be developed for fitment to airliners and warnings on sites including DUATS now emphasize GA aircraft over airliners. As the DUATS warning states: "Terrorists who are no longer able to hijack commercial airliners because of increased security at commercial airports may turn to GA airports and aircraft to conduct operations." I hope anti-GA people note the word 'may', incidentally.
Perhaps a more valid question is whether PC-based simulation software could help a terrorist gain knowledge needed to acquire and use a light GA aircraft for malicious purposes rather than whether such software could contribute to terrorist use of a hi-jacked commercial airliner.
My suspicion and hope is that even if simulation software could help terrorists, its contribution would be minor and that, in any event, GA aircraft are probably considered too small by terrorists to have real shock value.
I'm sure that any terrorist focused on evil would be willing to use any and all sources and methods available and be backed by considerable funds allowing the purhcase of far more than PC-based software to support objectives -- assuming that those objectives even involved aircraft instead of, for example, a 'dirty' radiological bomb using stolen cesium or cobalt that would cause long-term contamination in a city and perhaps even force abandonment of the area hit.
Having followed this thread I'm prompted to say that my personal perception of the terrorist threat around commercial airliners is that such aircraft are at greater risk of being brought down by shoulder-launched SAM than being hi-jacked and used as on 9/11 - at least in nations where commercial airport security is good.
The US Department of Homeland Security is reported to have been tasked with preparing a plan detailing whether and how missile countermeasures and protection systems can be developed for fitment to airliners and warnings on sites including DUATS now emphasize GA aircraft over airliners. As the DUATS warning states: "Terrorists who are no longer able to hijack commercial airliners because of increased security at commercial airports may turn to GA airports and aircraft to conduct operations." I hope anti-GA people note the word 'may', incidentally.
Perhaps a more valid question is whether PC-based simulation software could help a terrorist gain knowledge needed to acquire and use a light GA aircraft for malicious purposes rather than whether such software could contribute to terrorist use of a hi-jacked commercial airliner.
My suspicion and hope is that even if simulation software could help terrorists, its contribution would be minor and that, in any event, GA aircraft are probably considered too small by terrorists to have real shock value.
I'm sure that any terrorist focused on evil would be willing to use any and all sources and methods available and be backed by considerable funds allowing the purhcase of far more than PC-based software to support objectives -- assuming that those objectives even involved aircraft instead of, for example, a 'dirty' radiological bomb using stolen cesium or cobalt that would cause long-term contamination in a city and perhaps even force abandonment of the area hit.
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flight sims
I'm very interested in sims from tech point of view. I'm a software engineer by day and like to mess about with flight sims for fun. One of the things I'm doing at the moment is writing my own auto pilot - there's no way I'd be allowed to that in the real thing It was a great moment when the plane climbed and maintained the set altitude for the first time.
And interesting thing you can do to improve the depth of perception problem is to make the main screen apear to be focused at infinity. You can do this with a simple (and cheap) Fresnel lens (A4 page magnifier). Once you get the distances right the effect is very interesting especially if you run the control panel on another monitor.
How does flying a real Airbus feel with it's side stick and no force feedback?
Cheers
It was a great moment when the plane climbed and maintained the set altitude for the first time.And interesting thing you can do to improve the depth of perception problem is to make the main screen apear to be focused at infinity. You can do this with a simple (and cheap) Fresnel lens (A4 page magnifier). Once you get the distances right the effect is very interesting especially if you run the control panel on another monitor.
How does flying a real Airbus feel with it's side stick and no force feedback?
Cheers
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Corsair. I'm glad someone understands the point I'm making. As you correctly state, even some experienced pilots coming off turboprops can find the conversion to jet aircraft difficult, while others find it a relatively staightforward process (for a professional pilot). But I've yet to see anyone in the sim finding it easy on their first attempt in the jet. (And I say again these are pro pilots.) Then when it comes to line training, the learning process starts again, as you know. And I can assure everyone that when you're in the real aircraft line training a new guy, you've really got to watch in those first couple of days. There are just so many potential traps.
Yes, I think PC flightsims are very advanced these days. I enjoy using them myself. Yes, they can be useful to practice procedural instrument flying. Yes, they could be useful to a limited extent in rehearsing a route. Yes, they are fun. Are they like the real thing? No. That's why the airlines have to spend tens of millions on their flightsims! I think Andrew M gets it right - they are two different things.
Let me use another analogy - I'm pretty dam hot round Monaco in my Playstation. How would this transfer to the real world? Well, I'd know the track. But as for anything else, the real-life physics would obviously blow my mind and I'd be useless compared to the actual flesh and blood F1 driver. Also, when you look at the in-car footage of the real thing - it looks slow!! Which it patently isn't.
Let me restate - I've trained and checked a lot of professional pilots in the sim and aircraft. I've flown PC based flightsims. There is little comparison between the PC and the real thing. The physical sensation of all that metal, the physical dimensions of the instrument layout, the cockpit layout itself, the control forces (or even lack of in the airbus causes its own problems) wind and weather and your life being on the line if you screw up, does make a huge difference. (And I'm only talking about raw flying here, not actually being totally on top of the whole operation.)
Yes, I think PC flightsims are very advanced these days. I enjoy using them myself. Yes, they can be useful to practice procedural instrument flying. Yes, they could be useful to a limited extent in rehearsing a route. Yes, they are fun. Are they like the real thing? No. That's why the airlines have to spend tens of millions on their flightsims! I think Andrew M gets it right - they are two different things.
Let me use another analogy - I'm pretty dam hot round Monaco in my Playstation. How would this transfer to the real world? Well, I'd know the track. But as for anything else, the real-life physics would obviously blow my mind and I'd be useless compared to the actual flesh and blood F1 driver. Also, when you look at the in-car footage of the real thing - it looks slow!! Which it patently isn't.
Let me restate - I've trained and checked a lot of professional pilots in the sim and aircraft. I've flown PC based flightsims. There is little comparison between the PC and the real thing. The physical sensation of all that metal, the physical dimensions of the instrument layout, the cockpit layout itself, the control forces (or even lack of in the airbus causes its own problems) wind and weather and your life being on the line if you screw up, does make a huge difference. (And I'm only talking about raw flying here, not actually being totally on top of the whole operation.)
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Mark 139
Im a Boeing man so cant comment directly on the Airbus and the 'Force Feedback' but I assume its very similar to the forces felt on the Boeings.
You do not feed the actual control throught he control column as these would be huge and there would be no pilots able to fly the aircraft. The force we feel is artifical through a system called Q Feel which provides a force to the control column proportional to the dynamic pressure experienced by the aircraft.
Im a Boeing man so cant comment directly on the Airbus and the 'Force Feedback' but I assume its very similar to the forces felt on the Boeings.
You do not feed the actual control throught he control column as these would be huge and there would be no pilots able to fly the aircraft. The force we feel is artifical through a system called Q Feel which provides a force to the control column proportional to the dynamic pressure experienced by the aircraft.
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MAXIMUM
Im not trying to a smart alick ,or a bullsh-t artist.Im just stating fact.
Whether my sons a freak or what i dont know ,but as i mentioned before he has done it ,first on a dash 8 then 737-200 ,now a 737-300.
And this is in the flight sim section of an aussie airline(real hard to work out).
So between the 3 with many take offs ,circuits and landings with out a crash or any major real concern.So whats the story,do the sims have easy modes or what.
And to make matters more of a joke,most times he was flying without a co-pilot,doing the lot himself.
So im stuffed if i know.
Thats why i want a check pilot to check him out.
.
Sims arent the real Mcoy ,but i reckon he has done a damn fine job.
So im really asking ,if he can manage this,how would he have gone if he had continued being a pilot instead of jumping ship to become a AME and later LAME.
Im lost as well ,cause its not toys hes playing with,yet seems to be a natural.
So god only knows,but im stating the true facts
But this is only a sim flying around an airport---no mechanical faults to worry about ,weather conditions and the many more things required in the real world.
Im not trying to a smart alick ,or a bullsh-t artist.Im just stating fact.
Whether my sons a freak or what i dont know ,but as i mentioned before he has done it ,first on a dash 8 then 737-200 ,now a 737-300.
And this is in the flight sim section of an aussie airline(real hard to work out).
So between the 3 with many take offs ,circuits and landings with out a crash or any major real concern.So whats the story,do the sims have easy modes or what.
And to make matters more of a joke,most times he was flying without a co-pilot,doing the lot himself.
So im stuffed if i know.
Thats why i want a check pilot to check him out.
.
Sims arent the real Mcoy ,but i reckon he has done a damn fine job.
So im really asking ,if he can manage this,how would he have gone if he had continued being a pilot instead of jumping ship to become a AME and later LAME.
Im lost as well ,cause its not toys hes playing with,yet seems to be a natural.
So god only knows,but im stating the true facts
But this is only a sim flying around an airport---no mechanical faults to worry about ,weather conditions and the many more things required in the real world.
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Aussierotor.I make my comments in good faith and fully respect what you are saying. All I can say is well done to him. Obviously it's impossible to go beyond that without knowing how accurate the flying was. But the best of luck to him - he should try and fly with an instructor on the sim just to satisfy his own curiosity about his performance. Good luck to him.
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Thanks MAXIMUN,
Hopefully that will happen one day.He goes in after midnight if ones free and the right guy is on.Maybe one night he may jag someone there who will check him out,or maybe the hirachy may find out and put a stop to it------time will tell.
Not that it will lead to anything ,but he enjoys himself.Be just good to find out from a professional what he thinks
Cheers
Hopefully that will happen one day.He goes in after midnight if ones free and the right guy is on.Maybe one night he may jag someone there who will check him out,or maybe the hirachy may find out and put a stop to it------time will tell.
Not that it will lead to anything ,but he enjoys himself.Be just good to find out from a professional what he thinks
Cheers