Branson & Bishop to tie - up airlines
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Max Angle and Caractacus - I suggest you choose your comments about colleagues of your company a little more wisely. It is my view that Ops and Crewing do a thankless task. Whether you agree or not is your opinion and that is fine but it is their livelihoods. Your apparent glee at the prospect of them facing yet further redundancies and possible shutdown quite frankly appalls me. If it was your job under threat would you appreciate similar comments?
Back on the topic, it seems whenever A.R. denies something is going to happen at bmi .... it invariably happens.
ES
Back on the topic, it seems whenever A.R. denies something is going to happen at bmi .... it invariably happens.
ES
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Electric Sky
Hear Hear, ref yr comments about Max Angle
He has long had a chip on his shoulder about Toad Hall et al
.
It wouldn't matter whether Head Office/Ops/Crewing
was on the moon, the decision making process would remain the same.
.
Who wants to live south of Watford, anyway !
.
Hear Hear, ref yr comments about Max Angle
He has long had a chip on his shoulder about Toad Hall et al
.
It wouldn't matter whether Head Office/Ops/Crewing
was on the moon, the decision making process would remain the same.
.
Who wants to live south of Watford, anyway !
.
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Little Blue
A great many have had a choice of either move house and home, or find a job elsewhere, imposed upon them. All at three months notice. Some have suffered relocation up to three times in their "careers". Throw-away remarks from the cosy walls of Toad Hall are not appreciated.
As for having a chip on one's shoulder regarding Toad Hall, Max Angle is in a majority, unless all of the colleagues I work with just happen to be in the minority. To state that "the decision making process would remain the same" is to demonstrate an element of the attitude which creates the chip in the first place.
If Dickie B does get his merger (which is purely about LHR slots and nothing else), then he'd do well to seek the concensus of opinion amongst the workforce about the goings on in Toad Hall.
stormin norman
If you say so. 
Who wants to live south of Watford, anyway !
As for having a chip on one's shoulder regarding Toad Hall, Max Angle is in a majority, unless all of the colleagues I work with just happen to be in the minority. To state that "the decision making process would remain the same" is to demonstrate an element of the attitude which creates the chip in the first place.
If Dickie B does get his merger (which is purely about LHR slots and nothing else), then he'd do well to seek the concensus of opinion amongst the workforce about the goings on in Toad Hall.
stormin norman
BMI is a well run airline.......
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Anthony
My comments are not throwaway, and I do see both sides of the
fence, working in both the Hall and at LHR
I spend a lot of time defending my department against a lot
of ill-thought prejudice.
Do u really think that if we sat Ops/Crewing in the Queens building it would make for a smoother operation for all?
Of course it wouldn't, hence my remark over the placing of head office.
In a perfect world, there would be no disruption to yr rostas or the flying programme....
Are you operating today, by any chance?
My comments are not throwaway, and I do see both sides of the
fence, working in both the Hall and at LHR
I spend a lot of time defending my department against a lot
of ill-thought prejudice.
Do u really think that if we sat Ops/Crewing in the Queens building it would make for a smoother operation for all?
Of course it wouldn't, hence my remark over the placing of head office.
In a perfect world, there would be no disruption to yr rostas or the flying programme....
Are you operating today, by any chance?
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Little Blue
Oh yes it would! For a start, putting faces to the names would improve communications and co-operation between crewing and those at the coal-face. Secondly, the office dwellers would appreciate the problems associated with operating in and out of LHR, both airside and landside.
Chalky
Do u really think that if we sat Ops/Crewing in the Queens building it would make for a smoother operation for all?
Chalky
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What makes you think that we don't appreciate
the many ongoing problems that are encountered at LHR?
The majority of the ops staff are all from airport/dispatch backgrounds so are well-versed in that sphere
...
It's all very well shooting from the hip and laying
all the blame at the door of Crewing/Ops..
Have you taken the trouble to see life from the
other end of the phone?
.
Office dwellers, indeed. !!
.
Oh, and I am in LHR at the moment..and I'm
pretty sure that you know my face !!
..
Don't want to start a slanging match cos we really
are all batting for the same side, aren't we?
the many ongoing problems that are encountered at LHR?
The majority of the ops staff are all from airport/dispatch backgrounds so are well-versed in that sphere
...
It's all very well shooting from the hip and laying
all the blame at the door of Crewing/Ops..
Have you taken the trouble to see life from the
other end of the phone?
.
Office dwellers, indeed. !!
.
Oh, and I am in LHR at the moment..and I'm
pretty sure that you know my face !!
..
Don't want to start a slanging match cos we really
are all batting for the same side, aren't we?
Do you really think that if we sat Ops/Crewing in the Queens building it would make for a smoother operation for all?
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Little Blue
My, we are touchy, aren't we!
Note that I referred to Crewing, not Ops.
I wasn't BLAMING anyone, was I?
Some years ago now - when we were in the Crewroom upstairs in the Q's Building - Crewing rang Crew Dispatch to speak to a Captain. "Sorry", said M in Dispatch, "he left a few minutes ago; he'll be in the Car Park by now." "Oh", said Crewing person, "could you stick your head out of the door and give him a call for me?"!!!
Chalky
My, we are touchy, aren't we!
The majority of the ops staff are all from airport/dispatch backgrounds so are well-versed in that sphere
It's all very well shooting from the hip and laying all the blame at the door of Crewing/Ops..
Some years ago now - when we were in the Crewroom upstairs in the Q's Building - Crewing rang Crew Dispatch to speak to a Captain. "Sorry", said M in Dispatch, "he left a few minutes ago; he'll be in the Car Park by now." "Oh", said Crewing person, "could you stick your head out of the door and give him a call for me?"!!!
Chalky
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Do u really think that if we sat Ops/Crewing in the Queens building it would make for a smoother operation for all?
Uncle Pete
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flapless and BB
Speaking from personal experiences over a long period of time I can confidently say that, even with taped phone call evidence, that "mistakes" have never ever been the crewing department's fault. Nobody has ever said "We got it wrong, sorry"
One particular "gentleman" springs to mind whose Daddy was something high up in the airline, I forget what as I really can't be bothered.
Life's too short.
MP
Speaking from personal experiences over a long period of time I can confidently say that, even with taped phone call evidence, that "mistakes" have never ever been the crewing department's fault. Nobody has ever said "We got it wrong, sorry"
One particular "gentleman" springs to mind whose Daddy was something high up in the airline, I forget what as I really can't be bothered.
Life's too short.
MP
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OK, here's just an armchair CEOs opinion of the operational possibilities of the new link-up;
1. Merge bmi mainline with virgin express. the name virgin express would be good for the new airline. when vex was launched in bru, people expected the same level of service you get from virgin atlantic, but were disappointed with no-frills. adding the virgin name to the brand but adding express, gives virgin respectability but with a local, shorthaul feel, rather than virgin atlantic plastered over an A320 on a LHR-EDI flight.
2. Use the onboard service that was provided to passengers when Virgin operated the LHR/LGW-ATH route.
3. Order a modern fleet of Airbus airliners to replace the motley fleet bmi and bmibaby currently operate.
4. Operate routes from LHR anf MAN (maybe LGW as well but youd have to watch out for EZY) a route network of routes in competition with both the no-frills-airlines (i.e. Spain, Germany, Italy) and BA (Russia, Greece etc.)
5. Keep bmibaby. By restructuring it with the Virgin brand and expanding it across Europe in the same way he has done with Virgin Blue it could be a real hit. And Virgin Baby doesnt sound SO bad!
I dont know what coiuld happen to regional though?
1. Merge bmi mainline with virgin express. the name virgin express would be good for the new airline. when vex was launched in bru, people expected the same level of service you get from virgin atlantic, but were disappointed with no-frills. adding the virgin name to the brand but adding express, gives virgin respectability but with a local, shorthaul feel, rather than virgin atlantic plastered over an A320 on a LHR-EDI flight.
2. Use the onboard service that was provided to passengers when Virgin operated the LHR/LGW-ATH route.
3. Order a modern fleet of Airbus airliners to replace the motley fleet bmi and bmibaby currently operate.
4. Operate routes from LHR anf MAN (maybe LGW as well but youd have to watch out for EZY) a route network of routes in competition with both the no-frills-airlines (i.e. Spain, Germany, Italy) and BA (Russia, Greece etc.)
5. Keep bmibaby. By restructuring it with the Virgin brand and expanding it across Europe in the same way he has done with Virgin Blue it could be a real hit. And Virgin Baby doesnt sound SO bad!
I dont know what coiuld happen to regional though?
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Yoiks!
As a baby fan (they have done more for my local airport and the local flying people round here in ten months than the rest of the crowd have done in 50 years) - my two penn'eth....
Love the idea of VEX merging with mainline.... I guess tho that you'd have to rebrand, since remembering my time in Brussels, VEX stock is not very high - mainly for the reasons bmibaby.com states, but also because of the codeshare - people paid full whack for SN flights, ended up on VEX. Not happy campers.
In-flight service? Keep bmi's. Works for me. For the majority of the flights, there is not really the time to serve cordon bleu anyway. I'd rather a decent meal when I land using the money I saved on the ticket....
Airbuses for baby? I can't see that happening. The current baby fleet is consistent, fairly modern, and does the job. It is going to be interesting how well eJ get on with the hybrid 319s (319.5s?) they are getting....
Personally, I'd like to see baby go it alone. My experiences of them so far have been nothing other than very positive, which gives it many more points on the TA scale of approval than VEX, eJ, Go, flyBE, 6G or - god forbid - Ryanair...baby would be advised to stay away from the big hubs. Keep to airports where there is little if any competition. Provide the sort of service they do at CWL and they won't go far adrift. BUT - can we have more services please? Can't get a flight to the med this summer for love nor money - full all the damn time!
TA
Love the idea of VEX merging with mainline.... I guess tho that you'd have to rebrand, since remembering my time in Brussels, VEX stock is not very high - mainly for the reasons bmibaby.com states, but also because of the codeshare - people paid full whack for SN flights, ended up on VEX. Not happy campers.
In-flight service? Keep bmi's. Works for me. For the majority of the flights, there is not really the time to serve cordon bleu anyway. I'd rather a decent meal when I land using the money I saved on the ticket....
Airbuses for baby? I can't see that happening. The current baby fleet is consistent, fairly modern, and does the job. It is going to be interesting how well eJ get on with the hybrid 319s (319.5s?) they are getting....
Personally, I'd like to see baby go it alone. My experiences of them so far have been nothing other than very positive, which gives it many more points on the TA scale of approval than VEX, eJ, Go, flyBE, 6G or - god forbid - Ryanair...baby would be advised to stay away from the big hubs. Keep to airports where there is little if any competition. Provide the sort of service they do at CWL and they won't go far adrift. BUT - can we have more services please? Can't get a flight to the med this summer for love nor money - full all the damn time!
TA
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bmibaby cuold be kept and possibly rebranded as virginbaby or something along those lines.
the idea would be that bmibaby could replace bmi mainline from their focus cities like EMA, MME and the scottish airports where virgin do not currently fly, as bmi would probably just be turned into a feeder carrier for virgin's longhaul flights from london and manchester.
by adding some service ideas from virgin's virgin blue and possibly being able to earn and spend points with virgin's frequent flyer program, business passengers would still use bmibaby, where they may have used bmi mainline in the past.
so by replacing bmi in those cities, a large and common fleet would probably have to be used, so maybe Airbus as would probably be the type with the mainline fleet or maybe the 737NG as these are currently operated by Virgin's other airline virgin blue.
similarly a merger between bmi and virgin express, lets say for now its called virgin express, because that carrier is liked by low-cost passengers for being one of the most professional of the low-fare airlines, would allow virgin to create big feeder hubs at lhr and man aswell as being able to do very well from the bru hub where there is a lot of room for expansion. maybe that is where the 4 A330s could go?
just some more ideas!
the idea would be that bmibaby could replace bmi mainline from their focus cities like EMA, MME and the scottish airports where virgin do not currently fly, as bmi would probably just be turned into a feeder carrier for virgin's longhaul flights from london and manchester.
by adding some service ideas from virgin's virgin blue and possibly being able to earn and spend points with virgin's frequent flyer program, business passengers would still use bmibaby, where they may have used bmi mainline in the past.
so by replacing bmi in those cities, a large and common fleet would probably have to be used, so maybe Airbus as would probably be the type with the mainline fleet or maybe the 737NG as these are currently operated by Virgin's other airline virgin blue.
similarly a merger between bmi and virgin express, lets say for now its called virgin express, because that carrier is liked by low-cost passengers for being one of the most professional of the low-fare airlines, would allow virgin to create big feeder hubs at lhr and man aswell as being able to do very well from the bru hub where there is a lot of room for expansion. maybe that is where the 4 A330s could go?
just some more ideas!
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Got to disagree with bmibaby.com.....
I would hate to see baby join up with VEX. In my experience of both, baby wins hands down. I don't think VEX actually is regarded as "one of the more professional low costs"; VEX seems to be trying just to be cheap - a sort of Belgian Ryanair, without the lousy customer service.... baby seem to be aiming higher than that.
It makes more sense for mainline to become a Virgin brand. Call them Virgin X, where I don't know what X is, but certainly not Express, Atlantic or baby!
Let baby rename - can't see them being bmibaby without bmi.... let them stand alone, and carry on doing what they do best. They are doing a great job of growing by staying away from the competition, providing a fine service to underserved parts of the country, and by not getting involved in the Ryanair v easyJet mud-slinging (both of these may do better to concentrate on the "my yields better than yours" debate, rather than who has the lower fares, imho....)
Viva baby libre!!
TA
I would hate to see baby join up with VEX. In my experience of both, baby wins hands down. I don't think VEX actually is regarded as "one of the more professional low costs"; VEX seems to be trying just to be cheap - a sort of Belgian Ryanair, without the lousy customer service.... baby seem to be aiming higher than that.
It makes more sense for mainline to become a Virgin brand. Call them Virgin X, where I don't know what X is, but certainly not Express, Atlantic or baby!
Let baby rename - can't see them being bmibaby without bmi.... let them stand alone, and carry on doing what they do best. They are doing a great job of growing by staying away from the competition, providing a fine service to underserved parts of the country, and by not getting involved in the Ryanair v easyJet mud-slinging (both of these may do better to concentrate on the "my yields better than yours" debate, rather than who has the lower fares, imho....)
Viva baby libre!!
TA
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I don't know what the new airline would be called, but the new airline that was formely bmi, for argument's sake we'll call it Virgin Express, would be the feeder airline for Virgin Atlantic at London Heathrow and Manchester. The new airline would have good service, good fares and a modern fleet of A320 family aircraft feeding the longhaul flights, but also being competitive for the point - to - point traveler using LHR and MAN.
bmibaby (maybe virginbaby) could pick up all the markets that bmi now virgin express, has dropped to concentrate on the hub market. So you could see baby at GLA, EDI, ABZ as well as the existing bases at former bmi airports EMA and MME plus of course Cardiff. The airline is quite respectable in the low-cost sector so why not keep the airline and fill up the gaps, thus easing the intergration process?
I don't know what the new airline would be called, but the new airline that was formely bmi, for argument's sake we'll call it Virgin Express, would be the feeder airline for Virgin Atlantic at London Heathrow and Manchester. The new airline would have good service, good fares and a modern fleet of A320 family aircraft feeding the longhaul flights, but also being competitive for the point - to - point traveler using LHR and MAN.
bmibaby (maybe virginbaby) could pick up all the markets that bmi now virgin express, has dropped to concentrate on the hub market. So you could see baby at GLA, EDI, ABZ as well as the existing bases at former bmi airports EMA and MME plus of course Cardiff. The airline is quite respectable in the low-cost sector so why not keep the airline and fill up the gaps, thus easing the intergration process?
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Hey bmibaby.com - that sounds conspicuously like concensus to me!! Here's to baby growing into the spaces vacated by "New" mainline - long may they prosper.
The only thing I don't want to see is baby and VEX merging - baby are just better than VEX imho.... as I said, viva baby libre!
TA
The only thing I don't want to see is baby and VEX merging - baby are just better than VEX imho.... as I said, viva baby libre!
TA
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My view !!
1/ bmi mainline is split from the rest of the 'bmi group' and Sir Michaels control - this is then merged under the name 'Virgin' (not British, not UK and not Atlantic)
2/ bmi baby and regional is kept by Sir Michael and run with lot's of money he makes from the sale of bmi mainline - baby should be massive in a year or so, he has the north and middle England as his playground !! Keep your airline playthings and retire happily in ten years or so
3/ Virgin takes control of the entire mainline bmi network and forges it together under the Star Alliance umbrella as a serious comptetitor to BA
Virgin will now have a major presence in Europe feeding traffic to London and Manchester for existing Virgin longhaul.
The A330's will stay for medium-long haul ops such as DXB that both airlines have been looking at for some time.
Staff wise there should be little loss on the front line, however I would say once ops, crewing, sales,marketing,training etc have been merged after 12months or so, small losses are possible. The major expansion that would come about in the 12-18month period post takeover will hopefully see most keeping jobs tho.
4/ BA will fight this move tooth and nail !! It will be great for the UK aviation market and for employees of both airlines I think - but for BA in the weak state it is now - could be tough times ahead and they know it !
In short, a big battle ahead to push it through, but lots of exciting possibilities ahead - good luck Dickie......come and get it!
1/ bmi mainline is split from the rest of the 'bmi group' and Sir Michaels control - this is then merged under the name 'Virgin' (not British, not UK and not Atlantic)
2/ bmi baby and regional is kept by Sir Michael and run with lot's of money he makes from the sale of bmi mainline - baby should be massive in a year or so, he has the north and middle England as his playground !! Keep your airline playthings and retire happily in ten years or so
3/ Virgin takes control of the entire mainline bmi network and forges it together under the Star Alliance umbrella as a serious comptetitor to BA
Virgin will now have a major presence in Europe feeding traffic to London and Manchester for existing Virgin longhaul.
The A330's will stay for medium-long haul ops such as DXB that both airlines have been looking at for some time.
Staff wise there should be little loss on the front line, however I would say once ops, crewing, sales,marketing,training etc have been merged after 12months or so, small losses are possible. The major expansion that would come about in the 12-18month period post takeover will hopefully see most keeping jobs tho.
4/ BA will fight this move tooth and nail !! It will be great for the UK aviation market and for employees of both airlines I think - but for BA in the weak state it is now - could be tough times ahead and they know it !
In short, a big battle ahead to push it through, but lots of exciting possibilities ahead - good luck Dickie......come and get it!
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There are obviously an awful lot of experts out there in branding, sales and marketing.
Well, hereīs another point of view.
Why not take the opportunity of scrapping that offensive, neo-sixties, smart-arsed, "Oops, I-tried-not-too-shock-you-really-I-did" moniker, dreamed up by a shameless publicity seeker, with lazy dress habits and replace it with with a proper, respectable image not unlike the late-lamented BMA and the proper colour scheme it wore. It took years to get to that position and the process was well underway 20 years ago, when Bransonīs airline was born.
Nah, it will not happen, simply because Sir Michael and the Wooly Pully are just so far apart intelectually and will always remain so. Shame really, because a properly constructed MERGER, not take over would seem to make a lot of sense on initial inspection.
Let us hope that both companies make it through this particular downturn and continue thier seperate development although I realise that that is probably a pious hope in 2003!
Well, hereīs another point of view.
Why not take the opportunity of scrapping that offensive, neo-sixties, smart-arsed, "Oops, I-tried-not-too-shock-you-really-I-did" moniker, dreamed up by a shameless publicity seeker, with lazy dress habits and replace it with with a proper, respectable image not unlike the late-lamented BMA and the proper colour scheme it wore. It took years to get to that position and the process was well underway 20 years ago, when Bransonīs airline was born.
Nah, it will not happen, simply because Sir Michael and the Wooly Pully are just so far apart intelectually and will always remain so. Shame really, because a properly constructed MERGER, not take over would seem to make a lot of sense on initial inspection.
Let us hope that both companies make it through this particular downturn and continue thier seperate development although I realise that that is probably a pious hope in 2003!