Why pilots are paid so much
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Departing somewhat from the event depicted on the video where the pilot experienced roll problems for some time:
Perhaps, Pegasus, like me, you have been simply lucky in not yet experiencing a sudden wing drop near the ground on the airbus.
If, on the airbus, there was such a drop and you then awaited the airplanes stabilisation kit to take over and level the wings without any input from you, it would be likely that the wing tip would dig in first.
Perhaps, Pegasus, like me, you have been simply lucky in not yet experiencing a sudden wing drop near the ground on the airbus.
If, on the airbus, there was such a drop and you then awaited the airplanes stabilisation kit to take over and level the wings without any input from you, it would be likely that the wing tip would dig in first.
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The Airbus flight control laws are the biggest thing to get used to converting from a 'normal' aircraft, yes we all know that with time it will pick up the dropped wing in normal law,but the closer you get to the ground the less likely I am to give it time to do it before making my own input.
What I would like to see is the aircaft blend into direct law in pitch and roll between say 500 and 200 feet rad alt when the AP is off (ie hand flying) so that you know at the critical phase of flight exactly who (you) is controlling the surfaces.
Possibly you should still keep the elevator trimming out the trim change and inputting the trim to force the flare.
What I would like to see is the aircaft blend into direct law in pitch and roll between say 500 and 200 feet rad alt when the AP is off (ie hand flying) so that you know at the critical phase of flight exactly who (you) is controlling the surfaces.
Possibly you should still keep the elevator trimming out the trim change and inputting the trim to force the flare.
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To be honest guys, if we are always going to carry passengers on flights like this one in the video, I think we are going to have to start paying them just as much. At first it just looks a bit rough but the last 10seconds looks too dangeours when the right wing gets a bit close to the ground. I guess this is why ATCOs are ATCOs, didn't fancy flying in those winds.
Apparently the conditions for that attempted landing were :-
Lisbone Portugal
Run way: 21
Altitude: 374 Ft
Wind direction: 270
Wind Speed: 20 m/h
Wind G.: 47 m/h
Temp: 15° C
Apparently the conditions for that attempted landing were :-
Lisbone Portugal
Run way: 21
Altitude: 374 Ft
Wind direction: 270
Wind Speed: 20 m/h
Wind G.: 47 m/h
Temp: 15° C
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Having spoken to people who fly the A320 they have said that you do run out of control authority in gusts. And all this talk of direct law and normal law is scary. On the 757/767 you control the bloody thing end of story - which has got to be preferable to wrestling with the computer.
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From some repplies that I've read, it looks like there are some pretty good FS 2002 pilots in this forum.
As you all know, it's quite easy to spank those pilots on the video while you're standing in front of your computer with your coffee mug in one hand. Having experienced that kind of weather before I can only say that they did a great job. The aircraft was quite stable until close to the ground when suddenly it was caught by a gust of wind. The decision to go-around was taken immediately (and not late, as some guys wrote). This could be seen from the recorders, and then they elected to go to Faro (FAO). Anyway, you could say that with reported gust winds they should have diverted immediately. That is one decision that I don't comment. But I respect the two options. And the guys who are flying out there are lying if they never landed with gusty winds.
Cheers
As you all know, it's quite easy to spank those pilots on the video while you're standing in front of your computer with your coffee mug in one hand. Having experienced that kind of weather before I can only say that they did a great job. The aircraft was quite stable until close to the ground when suddenly it was caught by a gust of wind. The decision to go-around was taken immediately (and not late, as some guys wrote). This could be seen from the recorders, and then they elected to go to Faro (FAO). Anyway, you could say that with reported gust winds they should have diverted immediately. That is one decision that I don't comment. But I respect the two options. And the guys who are flying out there are lying if they never landed with gusty winds.
Cheers
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BB
The sidestick inputs on the 'bus demand a roll (or pitch) rate. The fact that you reach the stops does not mean that you have full aileron or elevator. Once you get to full sidestick deflection , if you hold it there, the aircraft will continue to increase the surface deflection at the max allowable rate until full deflection is achieved.
On the odd occasion you do reach 'the stops', ie demand max rate. Do not confuse this with applying full control wheel deflection however.
PS Don't shoot the messenger(!), I consider myself temporarily on loan to an Airbus Fleet whilst awaiting my return to the queen of the skies [the 747-400].
The sidestick inputs on the 'bus demand a roll (or pitch) rate. The fact that you reach the stops does not mean that you have full aileron or elevator. Once you get to full sidestick deflection , if you hold it there, the aircraft will continue to increase the surface deflection at the max allowable rate until full deflection is achieved.
On the odd occasion you do reach 'the stops', ie demand max rate. Do not confuse this with applying full control wheel deflection however.
PS Don't shoot the messenger(!), I consider myself temporarily on loan to an Airbus Fleet whilst awaiting my return to the queen of the skies [the 747-400].
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Hey ho, another Airbus V the Luddites thread.
There are 2 techniques for roll control in gusty winds on the Bus.
1. Leave the stick alone. Let the flight control system pick the wing up. As it finishes doing that, the pilot puts some opposite stick in to correct back to the lateral flight path. This is the horse and cart technique described by Pegasus 77.
2. Thrash the stick around like a madman (or woman) and curse the aircraft for having insufficient roll control.
Technique number one works a treat and has looked after me for the last eleven years, including countless approaches to Funchal. It is also recommended by the manufacturer. With the stick neutral you are demanding zero roll rate. If the atmosphere moves the wing the FCS will apply up to full roll control to react to the situation before you even realise there is a problem. For this reason, technique 2 has little to commend it. The pilots roll input appears to have little initial effect after the wing drop because the FCS has already given you all there is. If you're in that situation and you don't like it - go around. Which is exactly what you would have to do on any other aircraft.
Most military pilots over control when they start formation flying, the competent ones soon stop, the others fail the course. Many Airbus pilots over control in gusts initially, the competent ones soon stop, the others whinge on PPRuNe (aided and abetted by luddites and FS2002 jocks).
Rant over, must get back to reading my CRM instructors manual!
There are 2 techniques for roll control in gusty winds on the Bus.
1. Leave the stick alone. Let the flight control system pick the wing up. As it finishes doing that, the pilot puts some opposite stick in to correct back to the lateral flight path. This is the horse and cart technique described by Pegasus 77.
2. Thrash the stick around like a madman (or woman) and curse the aircraft for having insufficient roll control.
Technique number one works a treat and has looked after me for the last eleven years, including countless approaches to Funchal. It is also recommended by the manufacturer. With the stick neutral you are demanding zero roll rate. If the atmosphere moves the wing the FCS will apply up to full roll control to react to the situation before you even realise there is a problem. For this reason, technique 2 has little to commend it. The pilots roll input appears to have little initial effect after the wing drop because the FCS has already given you all there is. If you're in that situation and you don't like it - go around. Which is exactly what you would have to do on any other aircraft.
Most military pilots over control when they start formation flying, the competent ones soon stop, the others fail the course. Many Airbus pilots over control in gusts initially, the competent ones soon stop, the others whinge on PPRuNe (aided and abetted by luddites and FS2002 jocks).
Rant over, must get back to reading my CRM instructors manual!
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Topbunk & Bus14
Thank you for enlightening me - I didn't know about pitch/roll rate as opposed to control surface deflection. I see then that you've got to leave the 'bus until its finished dealing with the gust then roll it back to neutral, a couple of points....
i) How do you know that the upset has finished? What if you get 2 in the same direction that puts the aircraft at say 60 degrees bank, will the a/c just leave itself on its side?
ii) It would take a lot of conditioning for me not to react to the gust. If the picture out of the window changes, I do something about it. Sitting on my hands would seem very unnatural. Extraolating this further can we expect the aptitude tests to now seek out those candidates with really slow reaction times?
BB
Thank you for enlightening me - I didn't know about pitch/roll rate as opposed to control surface deflection. I see then that you've got to leave the 'bus until its finished dealing with the gust then roll it back to neutral, a couple of points....
i) How do you know that the upset has finished? What if you get 2 in the same direction that puts the aircraft at say 60 degrees bank, will the a/c just leave itself on its side?
ii) It would take a lot of conditioning for me not to react to the gust. If the picture out of the window changes, I do something about it. Sitting on my hands would seem very unnatural. Extraolating this further can we expect the aptitude tests to now seek out those candidates with really slow reaction times?
BB
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BB,
If you move the stick laterally, the demand is for a roll rate, as Topbunk correctly states.
However, what is more relevant here is that if the stick is neutral, the system holds the roll attitude. So as soon as the gust changes the roll attitude, the system is already bringing it back before you react. As the auto system has greater authority than the sidestick, the pilot input will not add anything. The aircraft will already have applied up to full aileron and roll spoiler quicker than a pilot could.
The bottom line is that if the wing drop is uncontrollable on the bus, it would also have been uncontrollable on any other aircraft, but at least the bus would be feeding in a correction even earlier than a pilot could. The pilot reaction to the gust is indeed natural, but is more to move the aircraft back to the lateral flight path than to correct the wing drop. Airbus pilots that understand that do not over control and are impressed with the way the aircaft rides the bumps. Airbus pilots (and others) that don't understand that........well I've said all I'm going to on that score.
For anyone who has taken the trouble to pay atttention to the characteristics of FBW, hand flying the bus, in rough or smooth air, is entirely natural and, to my mind, delightful.
If you move the stick laterally, the demand is for a roll rate, as Topbunk correctly states.
However, what is more relevant here is that if the stick is neutral, the system holds the roll attitude. So as soon as the gust changes the roll attitude, the system is already bringing it back before you react. As the auto system has greater authority than the sidestick, the pilot input will not add anything. The aircraft will already have applied up to full aileron and roll spoiler quicker than a pilot could.
The bottom line is that if the wing drop is uncontrollable on the bus, it would also have been uncontrollable on any other aircraft, but at least the bus would be feeding in a correction even earlier than a pilot could. The pilot reaction to the gust is indeed natural, but is more to move the aircraft back to the lateral flight path than to correct the wing drop. Airbus pilots that understand that do not over control and are impressed with the way the aircaft rides the bumps. Airbus pilots (and others) that don't understand that........well I've said all I'm going to on that score.
For anyone who has taken the trouble to pay atttention to the characteristics of FBW, hand flying the bus, in rough or smooth air, is entirely natural and, to my mind, delightful.
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Understood.
I still can't get my head around the aircraft moving control surfaces when I've taken the autopilot out - even though it could react quicker than I do.
I suppose it boils down to whose philosophy you plumb for Boeing or Airbus. Me being a simple man prefers boeing option - save for the 777 where the bloody thing puts rudder in for you on an engine failure.
An issue to consider is future type changes, in my company I know of a couple of cases where pilots of FBW aircraft have had difficulties on their conversions to conventional/older a/c due to "a loss of flying skills" eg trimming.
All the best
BB
I still can't get my head around the aircraft moving control surfaces when I've taken the autopilot out - even though it could react quicker than I do.
I suppose it boils down to whose philosophy you plumb for Boeing or Airbus. Me being a simple man prefers boeing option - save for the 777 where the bloody thing puts rudder in for you on an engine failure.
An issue to consider is future type changes, in my company I know of a couple of cases where pilots of FBW aircraft have had difficulties on their conversions to conventional/older a/c due to "a loss of flying skills" eg trimming.
All the best
BB
