Concorde priority?
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hi Oliver,
We get no priority or special handling over other traffic at LHR other than any "slot swapping" which the company may be able to organise with other own-company a/c (this obviously affects no other non-BA traffic). Even this practice is being restricted now since it can load up atc.
Having said that, we are very rarely tighter for fuel than any other long-range operation. If indications are that holding is likely at LHR inbound from JFK (e.g. strong winds, unservicabilities etc.) we can usually load about 45' holding fuel without a problem. Inbound from Barbados is a little tighter, but using the same rules as everyone else for diversion fuel can still result in 20 to 30 minutes of holding capability most times.
Bottom line - we fly by the same rules as anyone else, and if that means we go to LGW then that we do. Holding is a part of life at LHR and we plan accordingly - the fiction about Concorde's fuel capability is far more dramatic than the reality - and anyway we certainly are not in a position to require other air traffic to give way unless the company can shuffle its own assets around with the slot-swap procedure (and this is very rare - I've done it myself once in 3 years of Concorde flying).
Same at JFK although rarely a problem since we arrive there at low-traffic periods.
Best,
NW1
We get no priority or special handling over other traffic at LHR other than any "slot swapping" which the company may be able to organise with other own-company a/c (this obviously affects no other non-BA traffic). Even this practice is being restricted now since it can load up atc.
Having said that, we are very rarely tighter for fuel than any other long-range operation. If indications are that holding is likely at LHR inbound from JFK (e.g. strong winds, unservicabilities etc.) we can usually load about 45' holding fuel without a problem. Inbound from Barbados is a little tighter, but using the same rules as everyone else for diversion fuel can still result in 20 to 30 minutes of holding capability most times.
Bottom line - we fly by the same rules as anyone else, and if that means we go to LGW then that we do. Holding is a part of life at LHR and we plan accordingly - the fiction about Concorde's fuel capability is far more dramatic than the reality - and anyway we certainly are not in a position to require other air traffic to give way unless the company can shuffle its own assets around with the slot-swap procedure (and this is very rare - I've done it myself once in 3 years of Concorde flying).
Same at JFK although rarely a problem since we arrive there at low-traffic periods.
Best,
NW1
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Home
NW1
No longer the case old boy. You may not be aware of it but your ops. will be. NATS management have seen fit to grant Concorde the RIGHT to jump the queue, NO SLOT SWAP INVOLVED (but don't talk about it).
So, although you fly by the same rules, you know you won't have to divert and therefore are at a commercial advantage over the rest of the field. The holding capabilities you quote are not those given to ATC, particularly on the Barbados run.
I wonder if NATS may now receive applications from other non-UK outfits requesting the same privilege.
CJ
No longer the case old boy. You may not be aware of it but your ops. will be. NATS management have seen fit to grant Concorde the RIGHT to jump the queue, NO SLOT SWAP INVOLVED (but don't talk about it).
So, although you fly by the same rules, you know you won't have to divert and therefore are at a commercial advantage over the rest of the field. The holding capabilities you quote are not those given to ATC, particularly on the Barbados run.
I wonder if NATS may now receive applications from other non-UK outfits requesting the same privilege.
CJ
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
From: united kingdom
What you don't seem to be taking from this is that , nats has always been a first come first served organisation. Now apparantly a decision has been taken allegedly by management that allegedly allows one airline priority over all others operating into britains biggest airport.
AND if this a/c does get priority when eats are inforced then it is not just one minute it is the two a/c slots that it takes on final approach ,in lvps for example, that could have been your slot, and yes after holding for forty minutes at ockham to be told at your eat that you have to hold for another five minutes could mean that your 747 is diverted to manchester!
This, procedure is allegedly so sensitive that the atco's involved have been told not to mention it on the r/t or on tels. That is why they aren't talking.
AND if this a/c does get priority when eats are inforced then it is not just one minute it is the two a/c slots that it takes on final approach ,in lvps for example, that could have been your slot, and yes after holding for forty minutes at ockham to be told at your eat that you have to hold for another five minutes could mean that your 747 is diverted to manchester!
This, procedure is allegedly so sensitive that the atco's involved have been told not to mention it on the r/t or on tels. That is why they aren't talking.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
From: UK
Chris,
It would appear you have a deeper understanding of my operation than I.
I have flown 4 other types with 3 other operators. Our flying manual procedures remain the same - our flying crew orders remain the same. Our fuel planning considerations at pre-flight are based on the same concerns and rules as any other fleet. If we need it, we load up as available. If EAT exceeds holding ability, we divert (this does happen).
I am not aware, nor have been told, any differently.
I am intrigued by your assurance that I will never go to LGW. I'm not saying you're wrong (as I say, you appear to know more than I), but I'll send you a postcard from Crawley if and when that happens......
PS: If I were running the show I would not only *not* ask for priority, I would *insist* on a level playing field (inter-company tactical slot swaps aside - for all fleets - I think that makes commercial sense). We are all proud of our SST's ability to fit in, and we know that it can - but at the end of the day we are only players like anyone else: they give us the bat and we play ball with it, but we are not the umpires and are therefore powerless in that respect.
It would appear you have a deeper understanding of my operation than I.
I have flown 4 other types with 3 other operators. Our flying manual procedures remain the same - our flying crew orders remain the same. Our fuel planning considerations at pre-flight are based on the same concerns and rules as any other fleet. If we need it, we load up as available. If EAT exceeds holding ability, we divert (this does happen).
I am not aware, nor have been told, any differently.
I am intrigued by your assurance that I will never go to LGW. I'm not saying you're wrong (as I say, you appear to know more than I), but I'll send you a postcard from Crawley if and when that happens......
PS: If I were running the show I would not only *not* ask for priority, I would *insist* on a level playing field (inter-company tactical slot swaps aside - for all fleets - I think that makes commercial sense). We are all proud of our SST's ability to fit in, and we know that it can - but at the end of the day we are only players like anyone else: they give us the bat and we play ball with it, but we are not the umpires and are therefore powerless in that respect.
Last edited by NW1; 13th October 2002 at 00:30.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: UK
I would point out that on a couple of occasions since she went back into service she has ended up at LGW due to ATC having to deal with longish delays for one reason or another at LHR. So its not all plain sailing.
On the ocassion I can remember the 21:15 service ended at LGW and the aircraft made a short positioning flight back to LHR - getting in just before the 23:00 ban.
On the ocassion I can remember the 21:15 service ended at LGW and the aircraft made a short positioning flight back to LHR - getting in just before the 23:00 ban.
