MasterGreen

Danny,
This board is going down the toilet - slow or fast flush - your choice.

Every thread is now being hijacked by wannabees and Nintendo 'pilots' and all the associated armchair idiots.

Can we get a R&N that is PW protected on receipt of a valid PPL ( I am being generous - I would prefer CPL/IR) or better licence number (as per the company fora).

I for one am not at all comfortable about sharing my serious thoughts on R&N with all these "people" about. Just an idea - maybe we want it this way. But I suspect it was better in the past ....

MG

zippyz

I posted this in support of Capt PPRuNe in a recent thread after yet another newbie dweeb with no professional aviation licence or experience yet again posted ignorant and demeaning BS about a crew that generously decided to let him ride the jumpseat. I have always welcomed people on the JS but in light of these sorts of posts I will reconsider in future. Not only that but we contsantly seem to have to justify ourselves to wannabees and FS2000 stick jerking ******s. Surely we are tired of this, PPRuNe should return to what it formerly was..a forum for PROFESSIONAL PILOTS In the early days of the PPRuNe BB I nearly lost my job because some fool abused the privelege of anonymity afforded us by Dan and his teams hard work and posted libellous and slanderous commenst that were attributed to me. We are a patient bunch but I for one am tired of answering the questions of fools. So lets us have our forum back, restrict posting priveleges to only those who can prove they have a Professional Licence, allow access for others to read the posts and if we choose to list an email then perhaps we will answer a polite and discreet enquiry. Dan Please consider this proposal carefully, rightly so you are Judge, Jury and Executioner and dare I say it, rightly so! Long may you reign

This was posted 13th August 2002 09:19 and I make no apology for the hardline stance
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Make and example of him! Stone him and all his kin! Let there be BLOOD!
Dan!
Screw this B*****Ds hide to the wall beside that other fools' where it can be seen as an example to all and sundry of the ignorant masses who seem to populate these pages today.

I have been PPRuNing a long time and I can only say that I truly regret that these worthless fools are permitted any access to PPRuNe at all. I strongly urge the limitation of posting priveleges to only those who can prove their status as Professional Pilots... Let the wannabees and dweebs have their own forums or go elsewhere, but give us somewhere for us please Dan, a place to share our R&N in private. Let them stay behind their groundbound desks and spend their miserable groundbound lives wishing for a glimpse of the clouds and the sun the way we see them every day. It is through the uninformed and ignorant opinions of the likes of these that we find ourselves in our current industrial and professional straits. Let them know and regret that they will never ever comprehend even the tiniest part of what we do let alone achieve the standards required of us every minute of our working lives.

Hard line I may be, but also very tired of the denigration and dimuntion of one of last bastions of the true artisan. We are a select few and have proved our worth day in, day out in all weathers and climates all over the world. I abhor the state of our profession and it is only fools like these that make it so. Let us demand and receive the respect we deserve by dint of the long hard road each and every professional aviator takes to get where he/she is and the risks, duress and stress that is part of our daily lives as we perform the act of pilotage!

Brother Pilots let us reclaim what is ours.
We are different and apart and long may we remain so!

Rant filter off and soapbox stored safely away till next required.

Pehr Hallberg

I am not a professional pilot and I am not what you call a wannabee or Nintendo pilot. But I am astonished to read the post of zippyz. Reading this you get the impression that if you are a pilot then you are some kind of superman raised above the rest of humankind.

I cannot imagine that this is the mindset of the majority of the pilots. Yes you should be proud of your profession -- I am of mine (Software development). But I don't see myself as some kind of superman.

In your daily work zippyz, with all the different computers in your aircraft, you rely heavily on the professionalism of my colleagues.

FOUR REDS

I second these motions!!!!! I mean the first 2 posts only....

It is for these very reasons that my posts to this forum are few.

We must also remember that not all pro-pilots have access to the company forums, or indeed might have moved on thereby being removed from these. In any case a General Purpose R&N forum, suitably p/w protected, might be the way forward.
Another admin nightmare for Danny though.

I'll stick by you, Danny, whatever you decide.

............Per Ardua ad Job Centre...............

Lan Ding Gere

From nearly 53,000 members, is this all the support that can be given by fellow Pilots.

Come on, let's drum up some support !!!

HotDog

I'm inclined to agree with you. Have you seen the latest post (0538/14/08) on China Airlines B747 crash?

Nightrider

I don't see why we should have PPRuNe completely locked. There have been posts from non-aviation members which I loved to see, read opinions etc.
If there is interference, just work the professional way and ignore them. Professional pilots here on PPRuNe react on these hijackings and this leads to the widely off-topic arguments.
The procedure is simple, just stay quiet on any non-related or childish reply. (Hard hat required now...)

MasterGreen

Thank you 4 Reds. And you highlight a point I missed on my initial post.

Most important topics are cross cultural and trans company. This could be a better place where we could talk pilot to pilot without fear of misinterpretation of abbreviation and jargon or trepidation of uninformed ears (and tongues) wagging in the wind.

Even Bill Buffer's elegant and informative "BlueCoat" is plagued by "silly questions" at times nowadays. Sure there is a place for these things and we, as "professionals" have a public duty (perhaps) to carry a public face for these issues.

However it would be nice (in the true sense of the word) to have a relatively private place were we could could sound off sensibly and accountably (because the former begets the latter) on matters that concern our profession and industry.

Because I would never presume to offer the Chief problems, only solutions : How can this be policed?

Well here are some ideas, maybe not total solutions though ....

1. It cannot be anonymous. Real names only and all employment / licence / rating details in the open - in the "who" box.

2. These must be verified by a "referee" from each major airline / group.

3. Membership by invitation only after an email vetting through the "referees" to Chief Woobah (Hi Danny).

4. Since there is no such thing as total security on the Internet - anything you post must be assumed to maybe public and as such should be nothing you wouldn't say in the same circumstances. Danny is the wizz on this but I would assume that no real protection can be assured even from a locked and PW protected server. However one would hopefully be protected from "idiots" and "wannabee" comments, even if exposed to real world censure with your real name on the header; should the site's protection be broken. (Although I doubt that my MasterGreen moniker would protect me very much if someone really wanted to break it.)

I guess I am handing Danny a poison chalace here. Lots of work and heartache. However I really feel that Pprune must accend back to its' roots, with the emphasis on the "P" or it will descend to just another board....

That the other forii must continue is a given, just give me a place to privately sound off to my peers in a language and tone that will be understood and not misconstrued. I will happily share my real world details for this boon and be accountable for my opinions. This is a small price to pay I feel. Those who do not share this ideal are perhaps welcome not to play...

Quite a few cents worth ....

MG

Shadowpurser

So what are you saying? That other people in the airline industry don't have a contribution to make?

Should the CC forum be locked only to those who work the other side of the door?

Should the ATC forum only be open to people who work in the tower?

Come on guys all parts of the airline comunnity all over the world have valid points to write on this board. I for one since I have been a member have had some great debates and discussions and do not believe that my contribution is not valid. Ok you may get the odd person with no idea what's going on post now and again but it's not very common. A topic that may appear in R&N may be relevant to a whole host of different areas in the aviation industry and so would benefit from input from ALL of those areas.

Surely ther idea of this board is it's a place where we can ALL contact and discuss the situations and events in the airline industry.

PPRuNe may have started as a board just for pilots but if you at the different forums you'll see that it's become a lot more than this. Pilots have their own locked company forums where people like me are not able to post - and fair enough!! But I've just ordered $60 worth of enhancements to my name on this board to show my support for this great corner of the web. If more locked forums start appearing I for one would not be happy - as I don't see many others spending their hard earned cash supporting this board.

P.S. LOOK OUT FOR MY NEW ICON AND FANCY COLOURED WRITING - NO MORE "JUST ANOTHER NUMBER"!!!!

Konkordski

What next?

Ban commercial pilots from the military forum because they don't have experience in the armed forces?

Ban fixed-wing pilots from the Rotorheads forum because they don't have a single hour on a helicopter?

What about the air transport industry personnel who don't have a CPL (or maybe even a PPL) but who possess invaluable knowledge about the airline industry which directly affects you?

You might not like certain elements of the media, but some of the professional publications do a pretty good job of knowing more about what's going on in your company than you do. Do the counting yourself -- I have -- around 60% of Rumours and News threads originate from a media item which is freely cut and pasted here. Most of them, thank heavens, develop into sensible mature discussions.

Wig Wag

I remember PPRUNE in the very early days when it was completely unmoderated. That was quite untenable as identifiable line pilots were getting slagged off for incidents on the line - it simply had to stop to prevent individual employment being compromised.

A restricted forum would lose its impact and rapidly become uninteresting. I don't know how you stop the rubbish postings. It seems to me that one of the themes of PPRUNE is competing egos. This occurs in two forms.

1. Professional pilots scoring points over issues.

2. People pretending to be pilots for kicks.

Now, as regards the latter, the travelling public are well informed these days about airline operations. Up to a point pretend pilots will get away with it and this can dilute and confuse a good debate. The only way I can see that you can stop this would be for a valid licence number to be an esential criteria when registering. Imagine trying to administrate that!

I think we are stuck with the problem and must rely on the moderators to do their good work.

This forum must be public and anonymous to allow that essential free speech on those really tricky issues that companies have never, ever wanted to come to light.

TomPierce

A few points here.

One. I don't think Danny would lay aside a forum for ONLY professional pilots. He has pretty strong views on the subject. I hope he does anyway.

Two. If such a forum were considered who do you think will do all the 'paperwork' in monitoring who is eligble and who is not? The number of mods on this site number over 70. A massive amount of work is done by these and for the sake of a pro forum only I think it will fall flat.

Three. What about the wannabes? They are, whether you like or not, a very important part of PPRuNe. They rely on PPRuNe for a great deal of info and they rely on you Professionals to give them help and comfort while they try to climb the ladder.

Four. How did you climb the ladder? Were you not in fact ALL wannabes once? And as MasterGreen chooses to call them idiots or wannabes I assume he is self centred enough to say he never was. Fact, says he was. I was, and all of you were. You cannot escape from it, it was with us all.

Finally. PPRuNe has a record of helping wannabes. It has a fund which helped 5 cadets get there rating and training with Astraeus this year. All five are about to complete their line training and will then be fully rated on the B737. What about them? Are they idiots? They were certainly wannabes. Don't you reckon that is worth thinking about? Tell you something else, when those guys get to see this thread you can expect flak - big time.

The PPRuNe fund is run to assist wannabes. Wannabes also need to know the state of play in the industry, and they can, hopefully, get that from some of us.

No good hiding your bushel guys. You have a duty to encourage young blood as others encouraged you. If you don't help them or if you ignore them and treat them as idiots and say so, all you are doing is giving the wider public, and your peers, the distinct impression that you are better than the rest when you are in fact equal. Indeed, none of you are better than I am, though you may have more time, more experience (perhaps) but you obviously don't have the willingness to help the young uns.

It is true that some make idiotic posts. But then so do some Professional Pilots! It is also true that some make many gasp in exasperation. But then so do some Proefessional Pilots.

I suggest that re-evaluate your attitude and try to be a little more giving, rather than trying to make a fortress out of nothing.

zippyz

There are many valid points expressed by both sides here and I sympathise with the non-professional pilots and others. I do not suggest banning this group from PPRuNe in toto, just from a forum dedicated to us who aviate for a living. I believe we have a right to discuss issues privately and amongst peers without input from anyone else.

PPRuNe has an important role to play in aviation and it does so very well.

I for one will continue to stand on the side of a forum solely for the use of professional pilts and no others.

Shawny1

The whole forum has gone to the dogs and only worth a cursory glance now. PPRUNE should be PPRUNE, too many clowns now with highly self opinionated views on everything. Just gets us all a bad name.

Konkordski

Sorry Zippyz, I still disagree.

By its nature the job of a professional pilot involves interaction with other non-pilot people (air traffic control, ground staff, engineers, cabin crew, passengers, the list goes on and on...).

Just my opinion but I suspect that any discussion which wouldn't benefit from input from other professionals in the air transport industry would be hardly worth starting, let alone justify establishing a separate forum.

Knowledge about flight in all its aspects isn't restricted to those who fly for a living.

----------------------------------

"Every man is, in some way, my superior -- and in that I learn from him."

PPRuNe Towers

Let's just say that Danny and I have an incredibly high regard for every single word MasterGreen has ever placed on this site.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's say we also go along with his line of thinking 100%. Let's ignore his statement regarding the superb Bluecoat site where he, I and all who join have to write a resume for entry let alone provide the details many of you are suggesting.

PPRuNe works due to the efforts of our moderators - they offload us so we can actually keep the core of the site working. PPRuNe consumes more than 200 gigabytes of bandwidth per month and has done so for the last year and a half. The IT professionals who regularly visit can confirm that this is an extremely hefty throughput - one which would, in a business, have a significant number of full time staff devoted to it.

However, the site is actually run by 3 people in their spare time while still earning a living elsewhere. We've looked at this time and time again. Even if we didn't believe that non aviation pros could provide worthwhile comments, questions and experience the administative overheads would destroy the site. I'm not talking of money here but simply time.

Our backlog of work and improvements averages months at any time due to the short term workload administering memberships and problems readers have. We make the most appalling crewing and rostering departments seem like crack fueled dervishes of energy and committment

It would take less than 4 minutes to set up the forum some of you want and the rest of our airline careers to gain the time to earn the money allowing us to administer the membership work. More than 60% of PPRuNers are full time aviation professionals - please let us know exactly how you suggest we wade through and verify 20,000 plus applications. Actually - let's say 5,000 just for fun.

Hmmm, well I'm knackered this morning - you probably are as well so lets issue this challenge. Other than FAA licence holders who are on a database let's have your ideas on positively verifying a single application form submitted to us.

We're genuinely sorry PPRuNe isn't the place you remember - but then again it probably never was......

Vox

My Company forum is dull, it only gets a few posts when something happens like the annual pay talks or we re-fleet.

The BALPA company forum has real name posters only and it’s informative, relevant and politely dull.

You can easily ignore the Chemtrailer type idiot who sees conspiracy in everything, but the occasional gem that sometimes surfaces makes this site worth coming back to again and again.

Just in case I’m deemed not worthy of posting privileges, I’d like to say I’ve been flying since 1981 and I do it professionally.(Some would say that doesn’t mean I do it well )

DesignerChappie

I've lurked around PPRuNe for a few years on and off, but only registered a few weeks ago. I now find that I'am about to be banned, because I'm not a pilot!

I'm sorry that the 27 years I've spent in the aircraft industry does'nt give me the right to ask questions or express opinions that might provoke debate or comment from the guys up front. But remember you may now how to fly those big aluminium flasks, but there are a lot of people involved to get you to the holding point at the end of the runway, who may know more about the topic being discussed than you, or take a less jaundiced view, that makes us all think.

I've seen postings on this group from people who should know better, slinging mud at aircraft, operators, manufacturers etc. Yes it's annoying, frustrating, but most of it is 'flamebait' designed to provoke knee jerk reactions. Perhaps that's what this thread is designed to do after all.

I am more than happy to provide a copy of my CV and certificates if required, but don't drop me or anybody else because we cant provide a current PPL or ATPL, that surely is the job of the overworked moderator.


0.02 Euros supplied

ive348

I think this is another prime example of the attitude some pilots seem to have towards other people in the aviation field. Do I have to remind you (again) that we can only make this work together? Yes, I wouldn't have a job if not for you guys flying your airplanes. But you're not going anywhere, unless I say you are cleared to do so! I'm not trying to sound disrespectfull, but think about it.
Yes, there have been postings by individuals that shouldn't be here. Who have only one goal and that is to provoke a reaction. Maybe they should be removed. But in the end, this is an open forum, and it is up to you to react to a post, or to ignore it. To think the solution is a forum exclusively for pilots is a bit overdone. One of the great things about this forum, is the interaction beween pilots and others. Now that the chances of getting on the jumpseat are rapidly fading, it is one of the last possibilies for us ATCO's to get in touch with you.

Thomas Cook Airlines

This is a forum about the airline industry.
As long as the posts aren't stupid and closed minded, (and, it's not just the FS2000 pilots) why can't this forum be more friendly towards say airline passengers, airline wannabees and just people that like airlines, like www.airlinecrew.net, that's for crew, but, it's a nice open-minded forum.
I am only cabin-crew, but, i think that everyone should be included.