Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Misc. Forums > Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner)
Reload this Page >

RAF Flights Dakar To Brize Norton

Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

RAF Flights Dakar To Brize Norton

Old 16th Apr 2020, 14:28
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Just north of Chester, UK.
Posts: 271
RAF Flights Dakar To Brize Norton

Idly scrolling around FR24 this morning (and the other day, too) I noticed that the regular flight from Dakar to Brize Norton appears to take quite a detour into the Atlantic, skirting around to the west of the Canary Islands before taking a more direct track towards the UK. Any ideas why?
Captivep is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2020, 14:47
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: There and here
Posts: 2,071
Perhaps not welcome in Spanish controlled ATC space ? The GIB-BZZ flights seem to do the same.
SpringHeeledJack is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2020, 16:09
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Been around the block
Posts: 612
The French do the same with US DOD flights.
then they’ll plug up to a US Air Force KC-135 over Chad...
4runner is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2020, 10:49
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 804
Perhaps not welcome in Spanish controlled ATC space ? [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

("Quote" not working as it should)

Not exactly. You don't need Dip Clearance to go through somebody's FIR, just through their territorial airspace. And yes, the Spanish are sometimes "difficult"; back in the 60s when Franco was rattling the fence at Gib and we had a standing detachment of Hunters there, we would avoid Spanish territory but talk to Seville Centre for clearance. They were fine - as long as we avoided their territorial waters/airspace.
kenparry is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2020, 13:36
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,072
Originally Posted by kenparry View Post
Perhaps not welcome in Spanish controlled ATC space ?

("Quote" not working as it should)

Not exactly. You don't need Dip Clearance to go through somebody's FIR, just through their territorial airspace. And yes, the Spanish are sometimes "difficult"; back in the 60s when Franco was rattling the fence at Gib and we had a standing detachment of Hunters there, we would avoid Spanish territory but talk to Seville Centre for clearance. They were fine - as long as we avoided their territorial waters/airspace.
Your experience significantly differs from mine. Sevilla used to pointedly ignore us on HF when we were inbound to Gib. One day after repeatedly trying to raise them we slipped in the call “ Sevilla Speedbird xyz at 55” We got an immediate response of “ Speedbird xyz, Sevilla?” When we then continued, “ Speedbird xyz relaying for Rafair 123...” comms failed again, go figure.

YS
Yellow Sun is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2020, 15:22
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Just north of Chester, UK.
Posts: 271
According to gcmap.com a great circle route would go over Mauritania, Western Sahara, a tiny bit of Morocco, Portugal, the very north of Spain and Brittany. The oversea bit of the route would pass quite close to the Canaries (which could raise the Spanish airspace issue, I suppose) but it does seem odd that they would be that difficult about a RAF flight (a fellow NATO member, after all) which hadn't originated in, or was going to, Gibraltar.

A quick and dirty google maps estimate suggests that the longer route adds about 300 miles to the flight; not a lot, I guess. I'm still wondering why, though!
Captivep is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2020, 19:47
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 642
I believe the navigation service charges on the longer oceanic route are a lot less than the more direct route so maybe it's more cost effective. I don't know though if the military are exempt from these charges.
Musket90 is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2020, 22:51
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Why are the RAF operating to/from Dakar ?
Sunshade is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 06:59
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 73
Posts: 806
Your experience significantly differs from mine. Sevilla used to pointedly ignore us on HF when we were inbound to Gib. One day after repeatedly trying to raise them we slipped in the call “ Sevilla Speedbird xyz at 55” We got an immediate response of “ Speedbird xyz, Sevilla?” When we then continued, “ Speedbird xyz relaying for Rafair 123...” comms failed again, go figure.
That reminds me of my time working in Jeddah FIR in the late 70s. Every morning there would be an ElAl flight Tel Aviv to Nairobi and it would go down the middle of the Red Sea. The flight would call up Jeddah and it was a circus watching the controllers studiously ignoring them, turning their backs on the controller's desk, noses in the air etc. Hilarious!
Around the same time, there used to be regular USAF SR71 flights down the Red Sea and nobody spoke, either pilot or controller. Kind of "if you don't mention it, it isn't there" but the radar faithfully plotted it's progress.
KelvinD is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 10:15
  #10 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Just north of Chester, UK.
Posts: 271
Originally Posted by Sunshade View Post
Why are the RAF operating to/from Dakar ?
Stopover on the way to/from the Falklands.
Captivep is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 16:59
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 12,465
Originally Posted by Captivep View Post
Stopover on the way to/from the Falklands.
Those bl**dy tourists get everywhere ...
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 19:00
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: There and here
Posts: 2,071
Stopover on the way to/from the Falklands.
Because of the runway work at Ascension Island I presume ?
SpringHeeledJack is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 22:44
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,914
Back in time of old and the C-130 Ascension-Stanley airbridge day's I have fond memories of hanging around on the ramp in Dakar whilst our bespoke southbound VC-10 was refuelled en-route to Ascension, so the RAF using Dakar isn't new.
wiggy is online now  
Old 28th Apr 2020, 08:52
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: All over the place
Posts: 336
Cape Verde (which is the usual stop off point during the runway works in ASI) has a restriction on flights due to Covid-19, so the SAA is operating via Dakar until that restriction is lifted.
Off Stand is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2020, 17:35
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Just north of Chester, UK.
Posts: 271
Whether or not Musket 90's suggestion on the Dakar flights is correct (and it sounds perfectly reasonable to me) it certainly does appear that Spain continues to demonstrate antipathy to RAF flights to Gibraltar. There's currently an A400M (ZM407 if you want to take a look on FR) which left Karup in Denmark earlier this afternoon, flew across the Netherlands, Belgium and France before crossing the coast just east of Montpellier and flying to a point roughly halfway between Sardinia & Menorca and then making a sharp turn to the west (thus avoiding the Barcelona FIR) and is currently orbiting east of Gibraltar.

Last edited by Captivep; 29th Apr 2020 at 18:15.
Captivep is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 22:13
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Farnborough Hants
Posts: 140
Slightly OT, but.....
What's TARTN49 up to tonight? RAF flight from Brize Norton, over the North Sea, a couple of ovals, then up to Scotland and similar at the moment.
Paul Lupp is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 22:47
  #17 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 56
Posts: 7,390
Air to air refueling - there's a couple of Cobham Falcon 20s over the North Sea as well so presumably there are some Typhoons at play...
treadigraph is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 22:55
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Farnborough Hants
Posts: 140
Ah thanks.... looks like it's heading home at the moment
Paul Lupp is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.