Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

RECENT NEW ACTIVITY @ LHR

Old 24th Apr 2020, 10:36
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,577
Originally Posted by trident3A View Post
Finnair A319 just departed 09L and flew over London on the runway heading. I've seen a few of these departures recently - I wondered in what circumstances do they ignore the SIDs?
Good question. According to Heathrow's WebTrak, AY1332 was nominally on a BPK5K, which would involve a left turn onto 050 when more-or-less over the upwind end of 09L. Instead, it maintained the runway heading until roughly overhead Kew before turning northeast.

I'm not aware of any dispensations being granted, so technically it would be classed as off-track. That said, before it turned it was already at 6,000' so it must have been pretty light.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 19:14
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: jersey
Age: 70
Posts: 1,202
What is the point of sticking to SIDS - structured to apply appropriate separation on departure - when there is little traffic (in comparison to normal) to separate from ? In these circumstances, I would have abandoned SIDS in periods of continuing low levels of traffic. But, I didn’t work at EGLL !
kcockayne is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 20:28
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,577
Originally Posted by kcockayne View Post
What is the point of sticking to SIDS - structured to apply appropriate separation on departure - when there is little traffic (in comparison to normal) to separate from ?
The first part of the SID is also designated by the Government as the centreline of the Noise Preferential Route (NPR), which airlines are obliged to follow, designed to avoid overflight of built-up areas where possible.

That Finnair was indeed recognised as being "off-track", as can be seen from the highlight on the WebTrak plot:



I don't see what lack of traffic has got to do with not following the NPR.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 20:57
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Age: 45
Posts: 252
A Dublin flight did the same thing shortly afterwards. I just wondered how it works, do they acknowledge a BPK clearance for instance but just amend it before take off on the basis that thereís no other traffic and they can comply with noise restrictions.
trident3A is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 21:07
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Age: 45
Posts: 252
Maybe itís to route them clear of other priority traffic
trident3A is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 21:09
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: jersey
Age: 70
Posts: 1,202
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The first part of the SID is also designated by the Government as the centreline of the Noise Preferential Route (NPR), which airlines are obliged to follow, designed to avoid overflight of built-up areas where possible.

That Finnair was indeed recognised as being "off-track", as can be seen from the highlight on the WebTrak plot:



I don't see what lack of traffic has got to do with not following the NPR.
Well, thatís why I made the point that I didnít work at EGLL - so I did not have a full appreciation of the NPR requirements there. The SIDS where I did work, EGJJ, were not , as far as I can remember, mandatory as a required route if there was no traffic to separate from. As I remember it, we were at liberty not to use the SIDS should we require it (although, it was probably less hassle to stick with the SIDS - even if they were not strictly necessary). Anyway, thanks for setting me straight. I guess that once the a/c concerned in these instances had gained sufficient altitude so as not to exceed noise requirements, they were able to take a more expeditious route.
kcockayne is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 21:39
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,577
Originally Posted by kcockayne View Post
Well, thatís why I made the point that I didnít work at EGLL - so I did not have a full appreciation of the NPR requirements there. The SIDS where I did work, EGJJ, were not , as far as I can remember, mandatory as a required route if there was no traffic to separate from. As I remember it, we were at liberty not to use the SIDS should we require it (although, it was probably less hassle to stick with the SIDS - even if they were not strictly necessary). Anyway, thanks for setting me straight. I guess that once the a/c concerned in these instances had gained sufficient altitude so as not to exceed noise requirements, they were able to take a more expeditious route.
Yes, NPRs only apply at the three London Government-designated airports: Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. In addition, they only apply to aircraft below 4000' AAL, after which ATC are free to vector them where desired. The Finnair was at about 2200' when it left the NPR, so maybe just a misjudgement by ATC ?
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 13:52
  #48 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 56
Posts: 6,374
Cargologicair 747 G-CLAA just departed Heathrow - another unusual visitor?
treadigraph is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 15:32
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,577
Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Cargologicair 747 G-CLAA just departed Heathrow - another unusual visitor?
They had a couple of weekly schedules to LHR throughout most of 2017, but have been much rarer since then.

UK clears CargoLogicAir to resume freight flights
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 17:29
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: There and here
Posts: 1,841
Was there a smallish prop-job in Heathrow yesterday ? Friend said they saw a 'greyish' overwing 2 propeller aircraft sometime in the morning.
SpringHeeledJack is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 18:28
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,577
Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
Was there a smallish prop-job in Heathrow yesterday ? Friend said they saw a 'greyish' overwing 2 propeller aircraft sometime in the morning.
I'd say that was a pretty reasonable description:




Polish Air Force CASA C-295M military transport.

https://www.planespotters.net/photo/...ce-casa-c-295m
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 18:31
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 597
Regarding NPRs, maybe an exemption has been given for certain 09L departures as when on single runway and on westerly ops for the whole week the runway alternation does not apply...
Musket90 is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 19:47
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,577
Originally Posted by Musket90 View Post
Regarding NPRs, maybe an exemption has been given for certain 09L departures as when on single runway and on westerly ops for the whole week the runway alternation does not apply...
Yes, the only runway alternation that applies at the present time is the weekly swap between the northern and southern runway. The 3pm swap of arrival/departure runways clearly has no relevance currently.

I haven't seen any announcement of an exemption from the requirement to follow the NPRs. On the contrary, Heathrow's coronavirus website, in introducing single-runway operations, gave the following undertaking:

"Q: Will there be new flight paths as a result of this change? A: Our flight paths will be unaffected by this change to our runway operation."

That said, more than a third of departures yesterday were "off-track" (i.e. radar tracking revealed that they were not following the NPRs).
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 20:22
  #54 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 56
Posts: 6,374
I presume the Polish C-295 has forsaken Biggin Hill for its regular visits at the moment?
treadigraph is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 20:35
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: There and here
Posts: 1,841
What's the story ? Wouldn't it go into Northolt being that it's military ?
SpringHeeledJack is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 20:40
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 597
SpringHeeled - Just checked Notams for Northolt and this may explain it.AD OPERATING HOURS 0830-1930 FOR UK MILITARY AND CIVILIAN MEDICAL
FLIGHTS ONLY.
Musket90 is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 20:49
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 597
That said, more than a third of departures yesterday were "off-track" (i.e. radar tracking revealed that they were not following the NPRs).[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dave. It's interesting that some northbound 09L departures are off the NPR track. ATC are permitted to deviate from the NPR above 4000ft but webtrack indicates they are below this altitude when continuing beyond the point where they should have made a left turn. .
Musket90 is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 21:15
  #58 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 56
Posts: 6,374
Polish AF C-295s have been regulars several times a week at Biggin for several years. I assumed it was the Embassy run but I have been led to believe they are often returning Polish ne'er-do-wells and fugitives... allegedly!
treadigraph is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 22:07
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 11,577
Originally Posted by Musket90 View Post
Thanks Dave. It's interesting that some northbound 09L departures are off the NPR track. ATC are permitted to deviate from the NPR above 4000ft but webtrack indicates they are below this altitude when continuing beyond the point where they should have made a left turn. .
It's not just the northbound (BPK/ULTIB) departures that are going off-track, some southbound (GASGU) and eastbound (DET) departures are also failing to keep to the NPR as well, and of course track-keeping on the easterly Compton SIDs is always poor.

All of the NPRs only apply below 4000'.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2020, 11:31
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: There and here
Posts: 1,841
Polish AF C-295s have been regulars several times a week at Biggin for several years. I assumed it was the Embassy run but I have been led to believe they are often returning Polish ne'er-do-wells and fugitives... allegedly!
Wow! That's interesting. It surprises me that a very regular foreign govt aircraft would be using a private London airfield for this purpose and not the military airfield for London. I'm also surprised that there are so many naughty Poles here, as in my experience they are the nicest group of recent immigrants to the UK, generally hard working and pleasant people who seem to want to assimilate for a better quality of life (Not wanting to turn this into a political theme).
SpringHeeledJack is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.