Su27 Crashes at Airshow in Ukraine
Damien : Yes I know that Mark was not killed at an airshow - my
regret is that someone I had known in the past died as so many
others flying a vintage aircraft. I do not suggest for one moment
that nobody should fly old aircraft - I simply make an observation
that the toll in both lives and indeed rare aircraft is a high one -
we all have the right to make our own value judgements.
Kilted : Again, I simply make an observation not a rant against
'human rights' . Air shows will continue, spectators and participants will continue to enjoy them; sadly there will still be
an inevitable price - I wish there was'nt but in a years time let
us see how many aircraft have been lost since this thread - I hope that there are no such statistics but history...................
Before I am cast as a total 'old f**t', I have been flying professionally for 25 years and have taken part in many an airshow albeit not in recent years. My comparison to motor racing
is a simple one. Spectators go to be enthralled by a spectacle - they do not go to have their own lives put in danger. Measures
implemented since Ramstein have without doubt saved lives at many a display BUT should an accident such as last weekends
occur in the UK do not be surprised if Tony & Co (for whom I have
no time) will ban it all within days.
regret is that someone I had known in the past died as so many
others flying a vintage aircraft. I do not suggest for one moment
that nobody should fly old aircraft - I simply make an observation
that the toll in both lives and indeed rare aircraft is a high one -
we all have the right to make our own value judgements.
Kilted : Again, I simply make an observation not a rant against
'human rights' . Air shows will continue, spectators and participants will continue to enjoy them; sadly there will still be
an inevitable price - I wish there was'nt but in a years time let
us see how many aircraft have been lost since this thread - I hope that there are no such statistics but history...................
Before I am cast as a total 'old f**t', I have been flying professionally for 25 years and have taken part in many an airshow albeit not in recent years. My comparison to motor racing
is a simple one. Spectators go to be enthralled by a spectacle - they do not go to have their own lives put in danger. Measures
implemented since Ramstein have without doubt saved lives at many a display BUT should an accident such as last weekends
occur in the UK do not be surprised if Tony & Co (for whom I have
no time) will ban it all within days.
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I know I'll get blasted for this, but:
In America, the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds demonstrate maneuvers which can easily go wrong, hence relatively high levels of danger. There are no inherent military benefits to their displays; they rank next to letting movie stars and congressmen do emergency surface procedures in submarines (and possibly sink Japanese ships). Pure PR activity, outside the proper remit of the military; as a taxpayer, I object to providing 'toys-for-boys', when I actually paid for military airpower.
Airshows should only be allowed to those who will bear the costs of disaster; let them organize and pay for ALL the costs, including 1) aircraft, 2) providing a 'safe' venue, and 3)accidents, which will inevitably occur anyway.
In America, the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds demonstrate maneuvers which can easily go wrong, hence relatively high levels of danger. There are no inherent military benefits to their displays; they rank next to letting movie stars and congressmen do emergency surface procedures in submarines (and possibly sink Japanese ships). Pure PR activity, outside the proper remit of the military; as a taxpayer, I object to providing 'toys-for-boys', when I actually paid for military airpower.
Airshows should only be allowed to those who will bear the costs of disaster; let them organize and pay for ALL the costs, including 1) aircraft, 2) providing a 'safe' venue, and 3)accidents, which will inevitably occur anyway.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Purely as an observation, but having had the privilage and pleasure of seeing a number of SBAC shows at Farnborough, one can think back to some in the past where we saw for example 22 Hawker Hunters looping, Fleet Air Arm Sea Hawkes touching down between two others taxiing in the opposite direction with their wings being folded to allow the landing aircraft to pass between them. A Vulcan bomber slow rolling just after take off. Low fly-bys of Hunters with various underwing ordinance or tanks and completing a fast roll just as they past the spectators only a few feet above the runway, (one such roll resulted in a very interesting swerve towards the trees as the pilot slightly misjudged it). Multiple aircraft / helicopters in the air in very close proximity, and many other dramatic demos
Unforgettable stuff ( one doubts that the Hunter pilot ever has), but over the years experience and common sense have dictated limits. This years SBAC show contained pilots who demonstrated their machines towards the outer periphery of the envelope and shown human skills as impressive and inspiring as those who did so in the past, but it was very much safer.
Most show organisers have learned from past experiences, as painful as the one that has just taken place. We all learn something everyday, our lives a continual learning process, some are a little behind others. It may be ventured that, tragicaly, the Ukraine just learned something, and more perhaps will be in the aftermath and subsequent inquiery. It should not however mean the end of airshows.
Unforgettable stuff ( one doubts that the Hunter pilot ever has), but over the years experience and common sense have dictated limits. This years SBAC show contained pilots who demonstrated their machines towards the outer periphery of the envelope and shown human skills as impressive and inspiring as those who did so in the past, but it was very much safer.
Most show organisers have learned from past experiences, as painful as the one that has just taken place. We all learn something everyday, our lives a continual learning process, some are a little behind others. It may be ventured that, tragicaly, the Ukraine just learned something, and more perhaps will be in the aftermath and subsequent inquiery. It should not however mean the end of airshows.
Last edited by Paterbrat; 1st Aug 2002 at 19:34.
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Capt Kaos
Gladiator times - not at all. As a marshall for the BRDC, I am very much in the "firing line" when it comes to accidents on track. However, every motorsport ticket details that it is a dangerous activity and should be treated as such. The problem arises when Joe public arrives for his "bit of fun" without taking this into consideration and then squeals when something happens beacuse of human error / failure etc (of his own stupidity - witness the idiot walking across the track at Hockenheim a few years ago)
Sure, Armco, tyre barriers, construction methods, catch-fencing, gravel traps and run-off areas (among other things) all help to limit the danger, in the same way that current guidelines do at airshows. It is up to the public to satisfy themselves that sufficient precautions have been taken for their safety before they attend. This will not prevent accidents, nor incompetence, but at least one would be reasonably confident that appropriate steps had been taken.
If we ban everything that MIGHT possibly hurt somebody SOMETIME, this world will become a very dull place, full of very dull people - where do we stop - "let's ban steps, because people might trip"?
Gladiator times - not at all. As a marshall for the BRDC, I am very much in the "firing line" when it comes to accidents on track. However, every motorsport ticket details that it is a dangerous activity and should be treated as such. The problem arises when Joe public arrives for his "bit of fun" without taking this into consideration and then squeals when something happens beacuse of human error / failure etc (of his own stupidity - witness the idiot walking across the track at Hockenheim a few years ago)
Sure, Armco, tyre barriers, construction methods, catch-fencing, gravel traps and run-off areas (among other things) all help to limit the danger, in the same way that current guidelines do at airshows. It is up to the public to satisfy themselves that sufficient precautions have been taken for their safety before they attend. This will not prevent accidents, nor incompetence, but at least one would be reasonably confident that appropriate steps had been taken.
If we ban everything that MIGHT possibly hurt somebody SOMETIME, this world will become a very dull place, full of very dull people - where do we stop - "let's ban steps, because people might trip"?
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Kilted:
I appreciate in motorsport danger always loom, but, being a marshall, do you allow spectators on the track and are you not obliged to report dangerous and reckless driving?
And good, fair, sportmanship racing can be very exciting
Regards
Capt.KAOS
I appreciate in motorsport danger always loom, but, being a marshall, do you allow spectators on the track and are you not obliged to report dangerous and reckless driving?
And good, fair, sportmanship racing can be very exciting
Regards
Capt.KAOS
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Airshows
Anybody go to Farnborough on Press Day?
The weather was crxp and the displays flat.
THe Eurofighter display was a bit of a yawn when compared to the F18 - superb stuff.
Now to reality. The Eurofighter was displayed in accordance with briefed and agreed parameters - the F18 broke all the rules - I am told - shortly after take-off and was told to land. he nevertheless - I am told - continued to aerobat the aircraft on the downwind, after he was recalled.
Now the reality is surely this -
Both were there to sell their bosses aircraft. To do this, they needed to put on a better display than the aircraft of a competitor.
THink of the peer pressures involved?
A middle of the envelope display is easily eclipsed by a 'pushed to the limit' routine - maybe by an inferior aircraft?
Money is thus a big factor in the display.
I don't want to get in a Eurofighter v F18 comparison - you will miss the point if you think I am comparing the 2. I know nothing of the differences. However - if they are competing for a similar market and I was there to buy - I would have gone to the F18 stand first following the display.
Same is true of STOL types. An impressive display can be achieved well within the envelope. However - go to the edge and you can just as easily witness a slithering, sparking pile of junk. THe only difference is a few knots.
The weather was crxp and the displays flat.
THe Eurofighter display was a bit of a yawn when compared to the F18 - superb stuff.
Now to reality. The Eurofighter was displayed in accordance with briefed and agreed parameters - the F18 broke all the rules - I am told - shortly after take-off and was told to land. he nevertheless - I am told - continued to aerobat the aircraft on the downwind, after he was recalled.
Now the reality is surely this -
Both were there to sell their bosses aircraft. To do this, they needed to put on a better display than the aircraft of a competitor.
THink of the peer pressures involved?
A middle of the envelope display is easily eclipsed by a 'pushed to the limit' routine - maybe by an inferior aircraft?
Money is thus a big factor in the display.
I don't want to get in a Eurofighter v F18 comparison - you will miss the point if you think I am comparing the 2. I know nothing of the differences. However - if they are competing for a similar market and I was there to buy - I would have gone to the F18 stand first following the display.
Same is true of STOL types. An impressive display can be achieved well within the envelope. However - go to the edge and you can just as easily witness a slithering, sparking pile of junk. THe only difference is a few knots.
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With this thread there are two of the same subject using up a fair chunk of bandwidth. This one is starting to go off topic. So I have to say that if that continues to happen I will close it. But to be honest there is only so much you CAN say on this I guess.
We'll wait to see what happens.
We'll wait to see what happens.
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Having just seen the Harrier go down in Lowestoft, and having been a Farnborough last Saturday, I have to say that all this talk of us being safer is a bit of a misnomer.
The Harrier at Farnborough, as is customary, did its "bow" to the crowd. It was much closer to the crowd than any of the other aircraft and was probably the crowd side of the centre line. If it had engine failure at that point, injuries would almost certainly have resulted from the explosion of the small amount of fuel and parts flying off everywhere.
We were just lucky that the Lowestoft incident happened at sea.
I don't go to airshows much now as they are quite boring, no big planes like the Vulcan, aircraft doing the same thing quite some distance away. We all accept risk is part of life and if you go to an airshow (or a motor race) you have to accpet there is a small chance something might land on you. The only alternative is to watch it live on TV.. wouldn't that be fun
The Harrier at Farnborough, as is customary, did its "bow" to the crowd. It was much closer to the crowd than any of the other aircraft and was probably the crowd side of the centre line. If it had engine failure at that point, injuries would almost certainly have resulted from the explosion of the small amount of fuel and parts flying off everywhere.
We were just lucky that the Lowestoft incident happened at sea.
I don't go to airshows much now as they are quite boring, no big planes like the Vulcan, aircraft doing the same thing quite some distance away. We all accept risk is part of life and if you go to an airshow (or a motor race) you have to accpet there is a small chance something might land on you. The only alternative is to watch it live on TV.. wouldn't that be fun
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Pilots blamed in Ukraine air-show crash
The pilots of a fighter jet involved in the world's worst air-show disaster deviated from their flight plan and tried tricky new manoeuvres before crashing into spectators, killing 85, the chief investigator said Wednesday.
Click Here for Associated Press Story
Click Here for Associated Press Story
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President Leonid Kuchma demanded that the commission deliver its conclusions Wednesday, only 10 days after the accident, news reports had said.
Unpracticed manouveres does sound a bit suspect. Nothing like a quick deadline to speed up an investigation, end result - don't let the facts get in the way of a speedy verdict.
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Might be interesting to hear from any military display pilots as to whether they think it a possibilty that an experienced pilot would deviate from the plan. Personally I think it's total bollo and typical eastern block conspiracy stuff.
What will become of the pilots now then?? Exiled in Mexico?? Doing time in Siberia??
BM.
What will become of the pilots now then?? Exiled in Mexico?? Doing time in Siberia??
BM.
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Sometimes it's impossible to stick to a display routine. I've had to deviate from mine on several occasions. You might start off with a full looping display but have to modify it to a rolling show due to cloud. What do you do if you don't hit your gate height/speed on a particular manoeuvre? Carry on as the Phantom did at Abingdon in the mid eighties? No. You modify the display and, if you do it right, nobody notices.
Wherever there is excitement there is going to be risk; that's why people go to airshows and motor races. This was one tragic accident in many thousands of airshows which go on without a hitch.
Wherever there is excitement there is going to be risk; that's why people go to airshows and motor races. This was one tragic accident in many thousands of airshows which go on without a hitch.
