Su27 Crashes at Airshow in Ukraine
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I'd challenge anyone caught in the same situation as the Sukhoi pilots not to pull the bang-seat lever. Self-preservation is an extraordinary instinct. I wonder if either of the drivers even had time to think about it.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
BBC
Seems a bit of a shotgun approach in determining who is responsible as yet.
Defence Minister: Sacked.
Head of the Armed Forces: Sacked.
Head of the Air Force: Sacked/Arrested.
Air Force generals and colonels in the chain of command: "There were many incidents when criminal negligence came into play, when several heads of Ukraine's air force acted criminally."
Pilots: Still free but may "either be detained or put under house arrest pending the outcome of the investigation."
Seems a bit of a shotgun approach in determining who is responsible as yet.
Defence Minister: Sacked.
Head of the Armed Forces: Sacked.
Head of the Air Force: Sacked/Arrested.
Air Force generals and colonels in the chain of command: "There were many incidents when criminal negligence came into play, when several heads of Ukraine's air force acted criminally."
Pilots: Still free but may "either be detained or put under house arrest pending the outcome of the investigation."
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Hear Hear, Cargo Sales; Kaos, you are out of order and a first class tw*t. I have enjoyed many flying displays since I was about twelve years old (48 now), I was at Fairford when the Russians collided, and this year had a grandstand view of the G222 slidy landing;- it was my thirteen-year old daughter's first air show and it hasn't put her off - in fact she wants to go again next time - I am an ex-RAF pilot who now flies Airbus for a living so I have been around the block a few times and flying has been my life ;- but is having a flying display worth all this death and destruction? I'd be interested to hear other people's views. I just don't know any more.
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treadigraph: appologies, I have to correct myself, the distance of the aerobatics has to be 1500 ft, not the height.
cargosales: are you actually reading my message, or only looking at it? where did I say all the other pilots in the world are to blame? I blame the organisation and the pilots trying to impress their superiors flying in Su27's which are on the ground most of the time because of lack of money and parts.
smudger: you might have been in the RAF, but I´m not one of your personal. Of course, you're daughter wants to see an airshow again, she doesn't know better. let me ask you, would you take her to the RAC rally and watch it on the outside of a curve, or would you go with her to an away match at Celtic wearing Rangers clubshirts, I wouldn't
Airshows are okay but who needs flying bombs
Capt.KAOS
cargosales: are you actually reading my message, or only looking at it? where did I say all the other pilots in the world are to blame? I blame the organisation and the pilots trying to impress their superiors flying in Su27's which are on the ground most of the time because of lack of money and parts.
smudger: you might have been in the RAF, but I´m not one of your personal. Of course, you're daughter wants to see an airshow again, she doesn't know better. let me ask you, would you take her to the RAC rally and watch it on the outside of a curve, or would you go with her to an away match at Celtic wearing Rangers clubshirts, I wouldn't
Airshows are okay but who needs flying bombs
Capt.KAOS
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Capt Kaos, I think that you may rest assured that your sentiments of horror and dismay at the tragic event would without question be echoed by every member and guest on Pprune.
The fact that you are appearing to 'blame' rather emotionaly and somewhat irrationaly could be the cause of the some of the comments raised. Airshows and indeed many other spectator events will carry an element of risk to all who are involved. Accidents at even the most tightly controlled can and sadly do happen, it is tragic when it does and people die. But these events will continue to take place, it is of course your right not to go to them and indeed to express your concern as you have. And other will excercise their right to go to and see them and perhaps also to disagree with the manner in which you formulate your ideas.
To watch any display of skill power grace and beauty is a thing of joy. To see a beautiful machine destroy itself and incinerate a number of spectators a terrible tragedy. Life it appears is composed of such things.
The fact that you are appearing to 'blame' rather emotionaly and somewhat irrationaly could be the cause of the some of the comments raised. Airshows and indeed many other spectator events will carry an element of risk to all who are involved. Accidents at even the most tightly controlled can and sadly do happen, it is tragic when it does and people die. But these events will continue to take place, it is of course your right not to go to them and indeed to express your concern as you have. And other will excercise their right to go to and see them and perhaps also to disagree with the manner in which you formulate your ideas.
To watch any display of skill power grace and beauty is a thing of joy. To see a beautiful machine destroy itself and incinerate a number of spectators a terrible tragedy. Life it appears is composed of such things.
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Just wondering if anyone else noticed this on the clip?
The tailpipes of the engines on this a/c open up when afterburners are selected, the shape of which is quite distinct. However, from the clip, even from the angle it is shown it doesn't seem to me that the engines are at full power.
Perhaps a flame out did occur, a sad event all round really.
Oh, and by the way Kaos, if you were driving your car round a corner and you accidently skidded on some oil, and as a consequence your car followed a trajectory not of your choosing causing you to drive onto the sidewalk killing someone, would it be your fault for not pointing in a safe direction when traversing the bend?
Maybe with your Olympic championship winning conclusion jumping you should be a member of the Ukraine government.
The tailpipes of the engines on this a/c open up when afterburners are selected, the shape of which is quite distinct. However, from the clip, even from the angle it is shown it doesn't seem to me that the engines are at full power.
Perhaps a flame out did occur, a sad event all round really.
Oh, and by the way Kaos, if you were driving your car round a corner and you accidently skidded on some oil, and as a consequence your car followed a trajectory not of your choosing causing you to drive onto the sidewalk killing someone, would it be your fault for not pointing in a safe direction when traversing the bend?
Maybe with your Olympic championship winning conclusion jumping you should be a member of the Ukraine government.
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I'm not trying to take sides here Pilotbear but I think you'd technically be in the wrong for:
(a) not anticipating a possible hazard on a well-known danger area (ie, a bend)
(b) not driving at a speed which would allow you to retain control of the car in the event that you were dumb enough to do (a)
(c) failing to learn how to control the sort of skid that inevitably is caused by people so dumb that they do (a) and (b) at the same time
(a) not anticipating a possible hazard on a well-known danger area (ie, a bend)
(b) not driving at a speed which would allow you to retain control of the car in the event that you were dumb enough to do (a)
(c) failing to learn how to control the sort of skid that inevitably is caused by people so dumb that they do (a) and (b) at the same time
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The drawcard.....
Having worked at a number of western airshows that have included the Russian Fighters, or even at the Australian RAAF Richmond Airshow back in the late 80's which featured an AN124, it is a fact that they are always the ultimate draw card for the show organizers. Apart from the western intrigue with the eastern block machines, the displays are never anything less than unbelievable (which is why the An124 is mentioned earlier, he left the most experienced display pilot gobsmacked by his routine...costing him a grounding on the first public day!).
With this in mind, the concept that " this would never have happened at a UK, US or similar western airshow" is unfortunately a very misguided understanding of what really happens. It is a fact that the west have very strict procedures including display line displacement, no turning manoevers towards the crowd below X height, straight and level passes not below X height etc., however these are regularly broken and I am sure for the average enthusiast monitering or contributing to this thread that video or photographic evidence is available to prove this. An example is the SU27 at one of the early Avalon airshows who consistantly conducted passes and breaks down the runway at 50 or so feet...fact! This was in violation of the airshow performance guidlines but who would stop the star of the show......especially when as a start up airshow organization Airshows Downunder needed every dollar they could get from the "ice cream lickers".
My main point is that even with the best rules and regs there will be accidents and breaches of safety. These breaches may be accidental, some examples; pressure from authorities on display timings, aircraft mechanical failure, adverse weather or the unthinkable, conflicting display traffic (have that on film as well!), or diliberate where the display pilot's adrenalin runs away with them.
Every effort I am sure is made by modern western display organizers, but with the many influences that affect any outcome in life this will never be enough.....it is a risk industry, always has been, always will.
:o
With this in mind, the concept that " this would never have happened at a UK, US or similar western airshow" is unfortunately a very misguided understanding of what really happens. It is a fact that the west have very strict procedures including display line displacement, no turning manoevers towards the crowd below X height, straight and level passes not below X height etc., however these are regularly broken and I am sure for the average enthusiast monitering or contributing to this thread that video or photographic evidence is available to prove this. An example is the SU27 at one of the early Avalon airshows who consistantly conducted passes and breaks down the runway at 50 or so feet...fact! This was in violation of the airshow performance guidlines but who would stop the star of the show......especially when as a start up airshow organization Airshows Downunder needed every dollar they could get from the "ice cream lickers".
My main point is that even with the best rules and regs there will be accidents and breaches of safety. These breaches may be accidental, some examples; pressure from authorities on display timings, aircraft mechanical failure, adverse weather or the unthinkable, conflicting display traffic (have that on film as well!), or diliberate where the display pilot's adrenalin runs away with them.
Every effort I am sure is made by modern western display organizers, but with the many influences that affect any outcome in life this will never be enough.....it is a risk industry, always has been, always will.
:o
Last edited by Fox3snapshot; 29th Jul 2002 at 23:38.
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Come on folks.. keep this on topic.. DO NOT BE RAILROADED down some hypothetical conjectures unrelated to the actual incident and based on the processes by which people come to conclusions...
Discuss this unfortunate tragedy here, with all the usual wonderings of course, but please save the hypothetical wanderings for elsewhere.
Another dreadful day for aviation, heartfelt sympathies with the people and families of the dead; amongst the people who survived are two fellow pilots who most likely are not sure they wish they had survived....
£6
Discuss this unfortunate tragedy here, with all the usual wonderings of course, but please save the hypothetical wanderings for elsewhere.
Another dreadful day for aviation, heartfelt sympathies with the people and families of the dead; amongst the people who survived are two fellow pilots who most likely are not sure they wish they had survived....
£6
Last edited by Sick Squid; 30th Jul 2002 at 12:09.
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Paterbrat; thank you for your composed and wise answer, which made every sense. I will take your advise to heart, thank you.
Pilotbear: in case oil is on the track there's an oil flag (red/yellow stripes) waved by the marshalls which alerts me to take less risk in that particular part of the track. I've been offered several rallye drives which I refused because of the enormous risk involved for the spectators.
I hope this tragedy will start people think whether breaching safety factors is all worth......
Capt.KAOS
Pilotbear: in case oil is on the track there's an oil flag (red/yellow stripes) waved by the marshalls which alerts me to take less risk in that particular part of the track. I've been offered several rallye drives which I refused because of the enormous risk involved for the spectators.
I hope this tragedy will start people think whether breaching safety factors is all worth......
Capt.KAOS
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Coming back to the information-patches about this tragic catastrophy I found this, unfortunately only in german language.
The main facts are:
the two injured pilots blame their military bosses:
- they were advised to fly another aircraft than they trained their programm with
- they were advised to fly as low as possible, but they were not trained to fly extremely low
- the aircraft they were advised to fly was to much fueled (I understand they mean much more fueled than the aircraft they used before for training the programm).
A first analysis of both engines: they were both operative, however additional investigations are necessary to show the effective thrust.
Here are the sources:
http://www.focus.de/G/GN/gn.htm?snr=109007&streamsnr=9
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,207408,00.html
The main facts are:
the two injured pilots blame their military bosses:
- they were advised to fly another aircraft than they trained their programm with
- they were advised to fly as low as possible, but they were not trained to fly extremely low
- the aircraft they were advised to fly was to much fueled (I understand they mean much more fueled than the aircraft they used before for training the programm).
A first analysis of both engines: they were both operative, however additional investigations are necessary to show the effective thrust.
Here are the sources:
http://www.focus.de/G/GN/gn.htm?snr=109007&streamsnr=9
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,207408,00.html
Last edited by railwaysengineer; 31st Jul 2002 at 05:40.
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even if only a part is true what Der Spiegel and Focus is reporting, only one conclusion is possible; criminal to the highest level and some people may reconsider their flames towards me....
ps the a/c was too heavy on fuel weight to perform the aerobatics and that might be the reason it could not pull up in time and the left wing clipped the trees.
ps the a/c was too heavy on fuel weight to perform the aerobatics and that might be the reason it could not pull up in time and the left wing clipped the trees.
> A first analysis of both engines: they were both operative, however additional investigations are necessary to show the effective thrust. <
In other words there was nothing found failed internally that would have prevented the engines from operating normally, if they had not been both driven into full stall (no compression) by the manuevers (see photo above)
In other words there was nothing found failed internally that would have prevented the engines from operating normally, if they had not been both driven into full stall (no compression) by the manuevers (see photo above)
Like many others I do sometimes wonder if airshows are really
worth the risk. I was at Fairford a few years ago when the two
MIGS collided - ok, nobody was killed though a freind of mine who
was on the North side came damn close to being hit by wreckage.
Naturally I appreciate that these events are enormously popular
and are important to the aviation industry, armed forces not to
mention local economies. YET, in the UK alone the accident rate,
particuarly involving vintage aircraft is horrendous - take a few
minutes and formulate a list of just the last ten years. I have had
the pleasure of working with people like Hoof, Mark, and Guy to
name but three - yes, they paid the ultimate price for something
they loved BUT despite all the rules and regulations is it not just
a matter of time before we have a terrible accident in the UK which involves the public ? The accident rate each year seems
more akin to Grand Prix racing back in the sixties - too many friends and colleagues being lost.
I have no expertise in this area and will gladly accept some of the
criticism which my views will probably receive - it just seems to me
that many display aircraft are being operated in a manner not
intended by the designer - what you can get away with at altitude you cannot guarantee to escape from at display height.
My admiration goes forth to those who display aircraft in such a
professional manner - I hope that luck remains with you.
worth the risk. I was at Fairford a few years ago when the two
MIGS collided - ok, nobody was killed though a freind of mine who
was on the North side came damn close to being hit by wreckage.
Naturally I appreciate that these events are enormously popular
and are important to the aviation industry, armed forces not to
mention local economies. YET, in the UK alone the accident rate,
particuarly involving vintage aircraft is horrendous - take a few
minutes and formulate a list of just the last ten years. I have had
the pleasure of working with people like Hoof, Mark, and Guy to
name but three - yes, they paid the ultimate price for something
they loved BUT despite all the rules and regulations is it not just
a matter of time before we have a terrible accident in the UK which involves the public ? The accident rate each year seems
more akin to Grand Prix racing back in the sixties - too many friends and colleagues being lost.
I have no expertise in this area and will gladly accept some of the
criticism which my views will probably receive - it just seems to me
that many display aircraft are being operated in a manner not
intended by the designer - what you can get away with at altitude you cannot guarantee to escape from at display height.
My admiration goes forth to those who display aircraft in such a
professional manner - I hope that luck remains with you.
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While the USA can rightly claim that it has not had a spectator fatality in the half-century or so of FAA-regulated air displays, I'm a little concerned about the risk of getting complacent.
I've just been reading about an incident an air race/display at Westhampton Beach not so long ago. Despite the FAA's approving the arrangements there was a midair smack and the aircraft wreckage fell outside the safety perimeter. The area just happened to be free of spectators at the time.
It just goes to show that you can't be too careful.
I've just been reading about an incident an air race/display at Westhampton Beach not so long ago. Despite the FAA's approving the arrangements there was a midair smack and the aircraft wreckage fell outside the safety perimeter. The area just happened to be free of spectators at the time.
It just goes to show that you can't be too careful.
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beamer - Mark's death wasn't at an airshow, UK or otherwise. He was just landing. And you can be damn sure more people died on our roads every single day than have died at UK airshows in the last 50 years. Hell, more people have died at football matches.
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Amazing how some will seek to blame anyone but the pilots when accidents or crashes happen. It is the responsibility of the crew to ensure that what they do in a aircraft whether displaying or normal operating is safe. The weight, configuration etc is their responsibility and only they can operate the aircraft within its limitations not some guy at home or behind his desk. Same applies to helicopters hitting hills and Airbus' hitting the sea.
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Beamer
Select rant mode
This kind of knee-jerk protectionism is exactly the kind of mistake we now expect from Governments, but not from intelligent (OK - assumption) professionals. In all endeavours where human beings are involved, mistakes will be made at times - LIVE WITH IT.
As you say, there have been numerous incidents in the past - therefore any thinking member of the public (if you can find one - the Government is trying to make them an endangered species) ought to know that it WILL happen again, it's a matter of when and where. As such, air shows are akin to motor racing - they are an inherently dangerous activity and those deciding to participate (and that includes spectators) should bear this in mind when attending.
It really infuriates me when people suggest that it would be right to ban something just because THEY don't want to take a risk - what right have they got to prevent others from taking whatever risks they want - NONE (and I am referring to spectators here, not performers). The sooner this kind of "wrap everyone in cotton wool" mentality disappears, the sooner people might start taking responsibility for themselves instead of waiting for uncle Tony and his cronies to do it for them.
Rant over
Select rant mode
This kind of knee-jerk protectionism is exactly the kind of mistake we now expect from Governments, but not from intelligent (OK - assumption) professionals. In all endeavours where human beings are involved, mistakes will be made at times - LIVE WITH IT.
As you say, there have been numerous incidents in the past - therefore any thinking member of the public (if you can find one - the Government is trying to make them an endangered species) ought to know that it WILL happen again, it's a matter of when and where. As such, air shows are akin to motor racing - they are an inherently dangerous activity and those deciding to participate (and that includes spectators) should bear this in mind when attending.
It really infuriates me when people suggest that it would be right to ban something just because THEY don't want to take a risk - what right have they got to prevent others from taking whatever risks they want - NONE (and I am referring to spectators here, not performers). The sooner this kind of "wrap everyone in cotton wool" mentality disappears, the sooner people might start taking responsibility for themselves instead of waiting for uncle Tony and his cronies to do it for them.
Rant over
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Back to the Romans
Kilted:
your qoute: "As such, air shows are akin to motor racing - they are an inherently dangerous activity and those deciding to participate (and that includes spectators) should bear this in mind when attending"
In other words all the safety measurements taken say after that Pierre Levegh accident at Le Mans, like barriers for the spectators, armcos, nomex suits, rollover bars, safety gazoline tanks, crash zones etc etc, is just a waste of time and money and have to be taken as a risk, including the spectators?
Mercedes at least had the decency to pull it cars back a coupla years and think whether this is all worth......
Me thinks you're born 2000 years too late and would have loved the gladiator games......
Capt.KAOS
your qoute: "As such, air shows are akin to motor racing - they are an inherently dangerous activity and those deciding to participate (and that includes spectators) should bear this in mind when attending"
In other words all the safety measurements taken say after that Pierre Levegh accident at Le Mans, like barriers for the spectators, armcos, nomex suits, rollover bars, safety gazoline tanks, crash zones etc etc, is just a waste of time and money and have to be taken as a risk, including the spectators?
Mercedes at least had the decency to pull it cars back a coupla years and think whether this is all worth......
Me thinks you're born 2000 years too late and would have loved the gladiator games......
Capt.KAOS