Aircraft Proximity report
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Aircraft Proximity report
AIRPROX
Could anyone help me on this ASAP. How significant is this - do these happen all the time? I understand they came within a 1000 feet of each other (is this close)
email me at [email protected]
PRESS RELEASE FROM THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY WEBSITE
An Aircraft Proximity (Airprox) report has been filed with the Civil Aviation Authority involving an Embraer 145 and a De Havilland Canada Dash 8. The incident took place 10 miles east of Llandrindod Wells, Powys on Wednesday 3 July at 1915 hours.
The Embraer 145 was in-bound to Bristol and the Dash 8 was en-route to Newcastle. Both aircraft were receiving an air traffic control service from the London Area Control Centre. The incident took place at approximately 18,000 feet.
These details are subject to assessment by the independent UK Airprox Board. During January to June 2001 there were 44 airprox incidents involving civil air transport and 33 of these were assessed as having no risk of collision.
Could anyone help me on this ASAP. How significant is this - do these happen all the time? I understand they came within a 1000 feet of each other (is this close)
email me at [email protected]
PRESS RELEASE FROM THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY WEBSITE
An Aircraft Proximity (Airprox) report has been filed with the Civil Aviation Authority involving an Embraer 145 and a De Havilland Canada Dash 8. The incident took place 10 miles east of Llandrindod Wells, Powys on Wednesday 3 July at 1915 hours.
The Embraer 145 was in-bound to Bristol and the Dash 8 was en-route to Newcastle. Both aircraft were receiving an air traffic control service from the London Area Control Centre. The incident took place at approximately 18,000 feet.
These details are subject to assessment by the independent UK Airprox Board. During January to June 2001 there were 44 airprox incidents involving civil air transport and 33 of these were assessed as having no risk of collision.
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1000 feet is a fairly long way apart (in fact its the normal vertical seperation, but as this is classed as an airprox then I guess you mean they were laterally seperated). The severity of the incident is dependent on a number of factors including relative tracks of the aircraft, closing speeds, whether the aircraft were visual with each other or not, etc etc. As none of these details are in your initial post its rather difficult to comment. Airproxes are rare in the UK and flying is still the safest way to travel by far. That said I have no doubt the media (and that includes the beeb) will be reporting the 'near death' experience of these passengers tomorrow regardless of what we say here. After all "HUNDREDS CHEAT DEATH IN JUMBO NEAR MISS - PILOTS IN PANIC DEATH DIVE - more bad news for troubled ATC centre - is it a gypsy curse?" is a lot more news worthy than "Rare loss of ATC seperation reported over Wales. Both aircraft continued safely to destination"
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We're about to find out how it's reported. The beebs news website has a latest saying 'inquiry into how two BA aircraft came close to collision' No further posted just yet.
I for one have in the past spoken to the press and regreted it afterwards. Rather than everyone saying nothing and the press printing sensationist headlines is there a case for those currently working in the industry (ie not those of us who used to, recent views noted) having some organised links to the press to advise them on what the truth actually is when these sort of things occur/appear to occur? Might it make for more accurate reporting and less concern for the fare paying public?
I for one have in the past spoken to the press and regreted it afterwards. Rather than everyone saying nothing and the press printing sensationist headlines is there a case for those currently working in the industry (ie not those of us who used to, recent views noted) having some organised links to the press to advise them on what the truth actually is when these sort of things occur/appear to occur? Might it make for more accurate reporting and less concern for the fare paying public?
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It was one of the closest !!
ERJ145 descending to cleared level 1000ft above Dash-8 in level flight opposite direction. TCAS RA "Descend" for the 145.
Traffic info given, pilot follows the RA and dives through the Dash-8`s level, head on and very close.
Very worrying in view of this weeks tragic event!!!
ERJ145 descending to cleared level 1000ft above Dash-8 in level flight opposite direction. TCAS RA "Descend" for the 145.
Traffic info given, pilot follows the RA and dives through the Dash-8`s level, head on and very close.
Very worrying in view of this weeks tragic event!!!
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I would have thought that Journ-o-list and others monitoring these forums will lap up such 'sensational' stuff as the above without necessarily understanding what is happening. Don't talk to the press / media folks, leave that to the clowns of Flight and Channel 4.
Whenever we are faced with challenges then it's best to tell the truth.
The facts are that flying is risky!!
If you are going to pack scores of fragile people in narrow tubes and shoot them through the air at 600 mph supported on wings full of inflammable explosive then you shouldn't perhaps be surprised if, occasionally, things go wrong!! Throw in the odd proximity of other flying machines then you increase the risk factor.
This is not a reason for complacency since those of us who are intimately involved in the industry are constantly striving for perfection.
The problem with the media is that they have to appeal to the ranks of the "great-unwashed" and dumb down the facts to keep them hungry. Bad news sells the newspapers!
What about circa 3,500 pople killed on UK roads every year (that's about 10 a day!!!) - if ever there was a national tragedy to report this must be it. Compare this to the hysterical media reaction to the Hatfield train accident (by this I am not belittling the loss of life in this or any accident).
Personally I have decided not to read a newspaper or listen to he news - we have a choice, use the off switch and cancel the papers!
I am not saying we shouldn't be concerned with what's going on in the world but it's also important to keep it in perspective.
The facts are that flying is risky!!
If you are going to pack scores of fragile people in narrow tubes and shoot them through the air at 600 mph supported on wings full of inflammable explosive then you shouldn't perhaps be surprised if, occasionally, things go wrong!! Throw in the odd proximity of other flying machines then you increase the risk factor.
This is not a reason for complacency since those of us who are intimately involved in the industry are constantly striving for perfection.
The problem with the media is that they have to appeal to the ranks of the "great-unwashed" and dumb down the facts to keep them hungry. Bad news sells the newspapers!
What about circa 3,500 pople killed on UK roads every year (that's about 10 a day!!!) - if ever there was a national tragedy to report this must be it. Compare this to the hysterical media reaction to the Hatfield train accident (by this I am not belittling the loss of life in this or any accident).
Personally I have decided not to read a newspaper or listen to he news - we have a choice, use the off switch and cancel the papers!
I am not saying we shouldn't be concerned with what's going on in the world but it's also important to keep it in perspective.
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Flying is not risky, but it is very dangerous. The actual risk of anything happening is extremely remote.
High danger x extremely low risk = safe travel.
The thread on the ATC forum contains an excellent explanation of the workings of TCAS when issuing RAs which cross levels. The system worked as designed - panic over.
Long sleep - by 'one of the closest' do you include the well documented F15/767 airprox over DTY last year which was very close, or the more recent Air UK/F15 inbound to MME, which was estimated to be around 500 ft seperation? Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say:
"Traffic info given, Embraer pilot follows the RA, Dash 8 pilot follows the RA, Embraer descends through DH8s level to achieve optimum seperation as determined by TCAS."
TCAS doesn't really command 'dives' as such, just descent rates which would not be out of place in normal operations!
High danger x extremely low risk = safe travel.
The thread on the ATC forum contains an excellent explanation of the workings of TCAS when issuing RAs which cross levels. The system worked as designed - panic over.
Long sleep - by 'one of the closest' do you include the well documented F15/767 airprox over DTY last year which was very close, or the more recent Air UK/F15 inbound to MME, which was estimated to be around 500 ft seperation? Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say:
"Traffic info given, Embraer pilot follows the RA, Dash 8 pilot follows the RA, Embraer descends through DH8s level to achieve optimum seperation as determined by TCAS."
TCAS doesn't really command 'dives' as such, just descent rates which would not be out of place in normal operations!
Last edited by Carnage Matey!; 4th Jul 2002 at 22:59.
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Carnage,
Yes the thread contains an excellent explanation, however i disagree that the system worked as designed. TCAS is there to back up ATC when we get it wrong as we do sometimes, in this situation ATC got it entirely correct..ie Embraer descended 1000 on top of DH8-panic over.
For the Embraer to then descend through the DH8 level in response to TCAS RA as discussed is a TCAS induced loss of separation. Imagine the poor ATCO, 2 days after the DHL collision he watches an a/c descend through another 2 miles head on working on 100 mile range, labels garbled, blips merge, Embraer appears out the other side 300ft below DH8. If he is not off work with stress for some days i will be surprised.
We need to continue to develop TCAS and use all incidents to make aviation safer for all.
Yes the thread contains an excellent explanation, however i disagree that the system worked as designed. TCAS is there to back up ATC when we get it wrong as we do sometimes, in this situation ATC got it entirely correct..ie Embraer descended 1000 on top of DH8-panic over.
For the Embraer to then descend through the DH8 level in response to TCAS RA as discussed is a TCAS induced loss of separation. Imagine the poor ATCO, 2 days after the DHL collision he watches an a/c descend through another 2 miles head on working on 100 mile range, labels garbled, blips merge, Embraer appears out the other side 300ft below DH8. If he is not off work with stress for some days i will be surprised.
We need to continue to develop TCAS and use all incidents to make aviation safer for all.
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Following the thoughts above that we should have a 'spokesperson' to explain aviation matters to the media, the question is who?
Almost everyone has an axe to grind and such 'bias' would be immediately shouted down by others and the matter would descend to farce, probably to the joy of sections of the media. See almost any thread in PPrune
I would nominate the Civil Aviation Authority to take the role but I wouldn't want to be the one to do it.
Almost everyone has an axe to grind and such 'bias' would be immediately shouted down by others and the matter would descend to farce, probably to the joy of sections of the media. See almost any thread in PPrune
I would nominate the Civil Aviation Authority to take the role but I wouldn't want to be the one to do it.
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Maybe PPRuNe should have an "Editorial" forum where Danny can tell the journos how it is - god knows they quote him so often these days he should be demanding some shekels from them to keep the servers running 
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The irony is amazing. One minute you're condemning journalists for making exaggerated statements and not reporting the truth, the next you're committing the very same crime yourselves by denouncing all journalists as idiots, clowns, etc.
Want respect? Respect others. It's been said countless times on this forum and still some of you don't learn. You'll reap what you sow.
Air Vent, well said. Trustworthy links with respected media (and there are some) are the way forward.
Want respect? Respect others. It's been said countless times on this forum and still some of you don't learn. You'll reap what you sow.
Air Vent, well said. Trustworthy links with respected media (and there are some) are the way forward.
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The amount of traffic in the air especially in some parts of the world is very high. This was not the case that night in Switzerland.
The TCAS symbols often change on a normal flight from clear white to solid white. Indicating that the other A/C is fairly close within 1000' or so. Occationally they change from Solid White to Solid Yellow. This is highlighted by an oral TRAFFIC.
This is a great big wake up call and will wake the dead.
If it then goes red then you are instructed to climb or descend, it's called a resolution advisory. I've had 1 RA go off not on my A/C but on frquency. Both pilots were trying to negoicate with ATC a resuce plan before each A/C was told to climb or descend. In busy airspace the controller c.ocked up apologised and informed everyone that he was going to file a report.
Everyone at all stages new what was happening and acted professionally, didn't panic, didn't need to panic.
Accidents don't happen becasue of one thing. They are a chain of events. 5 men got it wrong, 2 russian, the DHL lads and the controller.
We can see everone on TCAS(Radar) and the bottom line is that it's the Captains ultimate responsability to ensure the safe operation and seperation of that A/C. In clear conditions at night or during the day, that means looking out of the window and visually identifying to teh best of his abilities the other A/C.
We are trained to follow proceedures but at the end of the day if a pilot thinks that following procedure will endanger the A/C he should and will do exactly what he thinks is nessessary. That is why pilots flyy A/c and not computers.
I don't trust journalists, whatever conlcusions they draw and publish lets hope they try to match the same professional standard that every airline pilot that I have ever met works to.
The TCAS symbols often change on a normal flight from clear white to solid white. Indicating that the other A/C is fairly close within 1000' or so. Occationally they change from Solid White to Solid Yellow. This is highlighted by an oral TRAFFIC.
This is a great big wake up call and will wake the dead.
If it then goes red then you are instructed to climb or descend, it's called a resolution advisory. I've had 1 RA go off not on my A/C but on frquency. Both pilots were trying to negoicate with ATC a resuce plan before each A/C was told to climb or descend. In busy airspace the controller c.ocked up apologised and informed everyone that he was going to file a report.
Everyone at all stages new what was happening and acted professionally, didn't panic, didn't need to panic.
Accidents don't happen becasue of one thing. They are a chain of events. 5 men got it wrong, 2 russian, the DHL lads and the controller.
We can see everone on TCAS(Radar) and the bottom line is that it's the Captains ultimate responsability to ensure the safe operation and seperation of that A/C. In clear conditions at night or during the day, that means looking out of the window and visually identifying to teh best of his abilities the other A/C.
We are trained to follow proceedures but at the end of the day if a pilot thinks that following procedure will endanger the A/C he should and will do exactly what he thinks is nessessary. That is why pilots flyy A/c and not computers.
I don't trust journalists, whatever conlcusions they draw and publish lets hope they try to match the same professional standard that every airline pilot that I have ever met works to.
Last edited by Suggs; 5th Jul 2002 at 11:31.
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Those disgraceful journalists have been saying terrible things about those two outstanding professional America West pilots recently.
I look forward to the inevitable clearing of the names of these professional members of the pilot community and their immediate reinstatement as flight crew.
After all, if they were intoxicated (as it's alleged, dear me, can't possibly be true) it stands to reason that every pilot in the world is fundamentally untrustworthy. Or does that kind of reasoning only applies to journalists...?
I look forward to the inevitable clearing of the names of these professional members of the pilot community and their immediate reinstatement as flight crew.
After all, if they were intoxicated (as it's alleged, dear me, can't possibly be true) it stands to reason that every pilot in the world is fundamentally untrustworthy. Or does that kind of reasoning only applies to journalists...?
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Being the slug I am I left my manuals in Operations at the airport; however, I do recall reading in the TCAS section a warning about;
Reducing the rate of Climb or Descent the last 1500 feet upon leveloff to preclude nuisance RA's with other Climbing/Descending traffic.
I can't recall the exact FPM climb our manuals say (And your manuals might have something different; there are different versions of the software out there) but I do know that it can make the difference in having an RA or not.
By the way, also in our manual, it says while the displayed range of targets can be up to 40 miles; only 7 miles range is garanteed.
Reducing the rate of Climb or Descent the last 1500 feet upon leveloff to preclude nuisance RA's with other Climbing/Descending traffic.
I can't recall the exact FPM climb our manuals say (And your manuals might have something different; there are different versions of the software out there) but I do know that it can make the difference in having an RA or not.
By the way, also in our manual, it says while the displayed range of targets can be up to 40 miles; only 7 miles range is garanteed.
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This sounds very like what is known as a "TCAS crossover", of which there have apparently been a few occurences in the States.
It happens when one aircraft is descending towards another which is climbing. Basically the TCAS equipment of each aircraft "sees" the other as head-on and then makes its decision on which way to organise the separation. If it decides that the descending aircraft should pass beneath the climbing aircraft, and both crews follow the TCAS, then both will go through their cleared level, crossover, and then return to their assigned levels. This is much easier to describe with a diagram!
The moral, of course, is to reduce the rate of climb or descent to less than 1000ft/min when within the last 1000ft. And for you controllers out there, it will always help to remind pilots of this if you advise us that there is opposite traffic climbing/descending to 1000ft of our cleared level.
The really frightening time comes when one of the crews decides to ignore the TCAS (probably because they have visual contact). As happened over Japan not too long ago a 747 and DC10 missed by something in the order of 20ft.
It happens when one aircraft is descending towards another which is climbing. Basically the TCAS equipment of each aircraft "sees" the other as head-on and then makes its decision on which way to organise the separation. If it decides that the descending aircraft should pass beneath the climbing aircraft, and both crews follow the TCAS, then both will go through their cleared level, crossover, and then return to their assigned levels. This is much easier to describe with a diagram!
The moral, of course, is to reduce the rate of climb or descent to less than 1000ft/min when within the last 1000ft. And for you controllers out there, it will always help to remind pilots of this if you advise us that there is opposite traffic climbing/descending to 1000ft of our cleared level.
The really frightening time comes when one of the crews decides to ignore the TCAS (probably because they have visual contact). As happened over Japan not too long ago a 747 and DC10 missed by something in the order of 20ft.
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Listen, I'm on the Dash 8 fleet for BACX(no it was'nt me nor do I know who was involved)but can I plead for all of you, including journalists to wait for the CAA to investigate and publish its findings.
In the meantime I'm simply relieved beyond words that there was'nt a mid-air!!!
In the meantime I'm simply relieved beyond words that there was'nt a mid-air!!!