Pre takeoff brief
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Pre takeoff brief
I'm interested in finding out from pilots - airbus or boeing, how long does it take you to complete full departure brief, takeoff brief and standard and non standard drills? With the era of low cost carriers quick turn arounds are the norm in the industry.
When do you start your brief? After preflight checks?
When should you complete them by? Before the before start procedure?
Do you brief the SID plate against the FMS, ie compare waypoints, tracks, distances, alt rest.
Would also appreciate a run down of your way of things that happen up the flightdeck!?
This is purely for my own interest to better my cockpit simulation that i have 737 NG
When do you start your brief? After preflight checks?
When should you complete them by? Before the before start procedure?
Do you brief the SID plate against the FMS, ie compare waypoints, tracks, distances, alt rest.
Would also appreciate a run down of your way of things that happen up the flightdeck!?
This is purely for my own interest to better my cockpit simulation that i have 737 NG
For us:
1. Set the speed bugs for take-off (this is often initially based on an estimated take-off weight)
2. Captain runs through an instruments check (each primary instrument indicating normally, no flags, QNH set correctly and altimeters reading within tolerance.) FO checks against their instruments, if all is ok they say nothing.
3. Check the FMS against the flightplan. (Waypoints correct and total distance correct.)
4. Get an airways clearance and set the initial altitude and squawk code.
5. Brief the SID. Check the chart number, and run through the pertinent points. If it's one you've never done before you might do it in detail, if it's one you do every day you can just review the basic points.
6. Enter the SID in the FMS and check it against the chart.
7. Pilot flying gives take-off brief covering the nav setup, the normal departure (pretty much already covered by the SID brief), the plan for a performance loss during the take-off, and the plan for something requiring an immediate re-land.
8. Checklist
It all take about 5-10 minutes depending on how thorough you want to be.
1. Set the speed bugs for take-off (this is often initially based on an estimated take-off weight)
2. Captain runs through an instruments check (each primary instrument indicating normally, no flags, QNH set correctly and altimeters reading within tolerance.) FO checks against their instruments, if all is ok they say nothing.
3. Check the FMS against the flightplan. (Waypoints correct and total distance correct.)
4. Get an airways clearance and set the initial altitude and squawk code.
5. Brief the SID. Check the chart number, and run through the pertinent points. If it's one you've never done before you might do it in detail, if it's one you do every day you can just review the basic points.
6. Enter the SID in the FMS and check it against the chart.
7. Pilot flying gives take-off brief covering the nav setup, the normal departure (pretty much already covered by the SID brief), the plan for a performance loss during the take-off, and the plan for something requiring an immediate re-land.
8. Checklist
It all take about 5-10 minutes depending on how thorough you want to be.
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After getting Departure Clearance:
Final Flight Deck Procedure:
Fuel Verification and Final Documents procedures
ACARS and FMC initialization and verification
Takeoff Briefing [PF]
Call “PREFLIGHT checklist”
Takeoff Briefing
• MEL / NOTAMs / Unique Issues
• Weather / Runway & Condition
• Taxi Plan / Hot Spot
• RTO / Evacuation
• Air Return / TO Alternate
• Block Out Weight / Takeoff Weight
• THR / Flaps / CLB Profile / V-speeds
• Clearance / Departure Procedure
• Displays / Automation Mode Intent
• Terrain / Obstacles / Climb Gradient
• Transition Altitude
• Engine Failure Procedure
• Other Threats / Mitigation
On the nth leg with the same crew, it may take 30 seconds to update "Standard Briefing, same as previously briefed except..."
On the first leg of a TransAtlantic trip out of a busy airport with a new FO, it may be 5 minutes...
Final Flight Deck Procedure:
Fuel Verification and Final Documents procedures
ACARS and FMC initialization and verification
Takeoff Briefing [PF]
Call “PREFLIGHT checklist”
Takeoff Briefing
• MEL / NOTAMs / Unique Issues
• Weather / Runway & Condition
• Taxi Plan / Hot Spot
• RTO / Evacuation
• Air Return / TO Alternate
• Block Out Weight / Takeoff Weight
• THR / Flaps / CLB Profile / V-speeds
• Clearance / Departure Procedure
• Displays / Automation Mode Intent
• Terrain / Obstacles / Climb Gradient
• Transition Altitude
• Engine Failure Procedure
• Other Threats / Mitigation
On the nth leg with the same crew, it may take 30 seconds to update "Standard Briefing, same as previously briefed except..."
On the first leg of a TransAtlantic trip out of a busy airport with a new FO, it may be 5 minutes...
Not a 737 but still Boeing.
1. Cockpit setup
2. FMC route - normally it's ACARSed in so request it, go get coffee and it should be waiting when you get back. Otherwise type from the paperwork. If it did come from ACARS check each leg against the paper flight plan.
3. Get the ATIS
4. Pick a runway and star and load them. Compare what's in the FMC to the chart.
5. Get the takeoff performance. Most of the time it again comes through ACARS, otherwise we work through tables.
6. Get the ATC clearance. Make sure it is the same as what you loaded in the FMC.
7. Briefing. One time a Check Airman was giving OE to a new Captain and I was on the jumpseat. The new Captain was going on and on. The Check Airman was looking out the window and picking at his nails after three minutes. The new Captain just keep going on. When he finished and asked if there were any questions or anything to add the Check Airman pointed out it was supposed to be a briefing and not the complete FCOM. I cover:
a. Current weather
b. Any MEL items that matter
c. Taxi plan
d. Takeoff thrust settings
e. RTO considerations
f. If there is a special engine out procedure and if we'll need fuel dumping
g. The SID step by step
h. MSA and transition level
8. Preflight Checklist
If everything goes right it's about 15 minutes of work.
1. Cockpit setup
2. FMC route - normally it's ACARSed in so request it, go get coffee and it should be waiting when you get back. Otherwise type from the paperwork. If it did come from ACARS check each leg against the paper flight plan.
3. Get the ATIS
4. Pick a runway and star and load them. Compare what's in the FMC to the chart.
5. Get the takeoff performance. Most of the time it again comes through ACARS, otherwise we work through tables.
6. Get the ATC clearance. Make sure it is the same as what you loaded in the FMC.
7. Briefing. One time a Check Airman was giving OE to a new Captain and I was on the jumpseat. The new Captain was going on and on. The Check Airman was looking out the window and picking at his nails after three minutes. The new Captain just keep going on. When he finished and asked if there were any questions or anything to add the Check Airman pointed out it was supposed to be a briefing and not the complete FCOM. I cover:
a. Current weather
b. Any MEL items that matter
c. Taxi plan
d. Takeoff thrust settings
e. RTO considerations
f. If there is a special engine out procedure and if we'll need fuel dumping
g. The SID step by step
h. MSA and transition level
8. Preflight Checklist
If everything goes right it's about 15 minutes of work.
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Thanks a bunch guys really appreciated.
It seems this is all done before the preflight checks is that correct? And what is left after preflight checks? Just waiting for doors to be closed?
Also like to add, for the PF - before start procedure for the 737 is this set V2, arm the A/T, LNAV VNAV if needed FMC page to TAKEOFF, as per the FCOM or is this down to each operator?
Also during CDU preflight do you enter the expected RWY and SID? And double check this when getting clearance roughly 10mins before OBT
It seems this is all done before the preflight checks is that correct? And what is left after preflight checks? Just waiting for doors to be closed?
Also like to add, for the PF - before start procedure for the 737 is this set V2, arm the A/T, LNAV VNAV if needed FMC page to TAKEOFF, as per the FCOM or is this down to each operator?
Also during CDU preflight do you enter the expected RWY and SID? And double check this when getting clearance roughly 10mins before OBT
Yep, just wait for the door, another cup of coffee, a last bathroom break.
As Aerocat said, you set V2 based on planned TO weight. It gets double checked when the final paperwork shows up. Shouldn't be more than a knot or two difference. We don't arm the A/T until the Before T/O checklist but LNAV/VNAV are armed when it's confirmed that's what we're doing and the FMC pages set to Takeoff and Legs after the briefing.
Runway and SID picked as a best guess, confirmed after the ATC clearance.
As Aerocat said, you set V2 based on planned TO weight. It gets double checked when the final paperwork shows up. Shouldn't be more than a knot or two difference. We don't arm the A/T until the Before T/O checklist but LNAV/VNAV are armed when it's confirmed that's what we're doing and the FMC pages set to Takeoff and Legs after the briefing.
Runway and SID picked as a best guess, confirmed after the ATC clearance.
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I have been setting everything up during my before start procedure per the Boeing standard FCOM,
MCP ............................................................ ...................... Set C
AUTOTHROTTLE ARM switch – ARM
IAS/MACH selector – Set V2 Arm LNAV as needed
[Option - FMC U10.8 and later, FCC Collins P4 and later or FCC Honeywell 710 and later, and CDS BP06 and later]
Arm VNAV
Initial heading – Set
Initial altitude – Set
Taxi and Takeoff briefings ...................................... Complete C, F/O
So what should i do where?
When do you perform your performance calculations on the EFB?
Cheers
MCP ............................................................ ...................... Set C
AUTOTHROTTLE ARM switch – ARM
IAS/MACH selector – Set V2 Arm LNAV as needed
[Option - FMC U10.8 and later, FCC Collins P4 and later or FCC Honeywell 710 and later, and CDS BP06 and later]
Arm VNAV
Initial heading – Set
Initial altitude – Set
Taxi and Takeoff briefings ...................................... Complete C, F/O
So what should i do where?
When do you perform your performance calculations on the EFB?
Cheers
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B777
VNAV, LNAV, V speeds, initial climb height, departure, weights, trim, flap setting and runway heading are all completed at the critical data setting procedure before push back and engine start, all data crosschecked between the PF and the PNF.
Once the push back has been completed and the donks started, the flaps are selected, control surfaces checked and the before taxi checks completed.
On the way out to the runway the before take off brief is updated with any changes to the aircraft MEL items and performance items once the cabin checks and the final load sheet have been confirmed.
The whole gambit of setting up the aircraft, running through the departure brief, completing the critical data setting procedure, running the emergencies brief and then updating critical changes on the taxy takes about 15 minutes with an experienced crew.
If you haven't got someone else there to crosscheck your calculations (which you won't have on flight sim except a very understanding wife/girlfriend/partner etc...) then there is no point in re-briefing yourself. Either you have entered it correctly or you've entered it incorrectly believing you have done it correctly. The result will be either a successful mathematical take off or a few mushed pixels, game over, try again. 
Enjoy.
VNAV, LNAV, V speeds, initial climb height, departure, weights, trim, flap setting and runway heading are all completed at the critical data setting procedure before push back and engine start, all data crosschecked between the PF and the PNF.
Once the push back has been completed and the donks started, the flaps are selected, control surfaces checked and the before taxi checks completed.
On the way out to the runway the before take off brief is updated with any changes to the aircraft MEL items and performance items once the cabin checks and the final load sheet have been confirmed.
The whole gambit of setting up the aircraft, running through the departure brief, completing the critical data setting procedure, running the emergencies brief and then updating critical changes on the taxy takes about 15 minutes with an experienced crew.
Since you're simulating, and likely do not have a 2nd pilot doing it with you, further detail is moot.
Enjoy.
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Nice to see 'proper' pilots giving such helpful information to flight simmers [of which there are many, including me, tho' I did have a proper PPL], instead of just deriding them, as frequently happens.
It is a very popular and absorbing hobby [not obsessive in my case!] and gives a very good insight into the proper flying world that many of us can't/couldn't achieve. Thankyou very much guys.
It is a very popular and absorbing hobby [not obsessive in my case!] and gives a very good insight into the proper flying world that many of us can't/couldn't achieve. Thankyou very much guys.
When do you perform your performance calculations on the EFB?
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I'm using this addon software called FS2Crew for the 737 NGX and at +7 before gates close he comes and says hes your loadsheet captain! Don't laugh but the software is very powerfull and the FO is doing all the FLOWS in the background when needed and also the checklists when needed. You also can give him commands which reduces your work flow ie during the critical takeoff segment.
Ok cool, i'll add that second agent to the mix is this just a final pax count and final weight?
I have also this tool called TOPCAT (takeoff perf calculations) which uses BOEING FCOM Performance Dispatch tables, i plug in the airport, runway the weather and i have everything i need. Its gives you options to calculate like OPTIMUM.
Nothing like your guys EFB but its good enough for us!
So soon as i do my PERF CALC is that when i can enter V2, TO CG, STAB TRIM etc?
Ok cool, i'll add that second agent to the mix is this just a final pax count and final weight?
I have also this tool called TOPCAT (takeoff perf calculations) which uses BOEING FCOM Performance Dispatch tables, i plug in the airport, runway the weather and i have everything i need. Its gives you options to calculate like OPTIMUM.
Nothing like your guys EFB but its good enough for us!
So soon as i do my PERF CALC is that when i can enter V2, TO CG, STAB TRIM etc?
Ok cool, i'll add that second agent to the mix is this just a final pax count and final weight?
Yes
So soon as i do my PERF CALC is that when i can enter V2, TO CG, STAB TRIM etc?
I look at it as four globs of stuff to do. There's the initial flows and nest building to check everything out. Right after that is the routing, either typing or sent through ACARS and tweaked with the SID and runway. Then comes the performance data. Some times I'll be seating in the seat and the other pilot will ask if I've run the performance. I'll reply that we have 45 minutes and new weather will be out in 5 and I'm waiting. When the performance is done, load it and have the other pilot check it. ATC clearance is normally available 30 minutes prior. You get that, change whatever has to be changed on the route and go straight into the briefing.
do you guys have the before start checklist to the line / below the line? Or use the standard checklist?Thread Starter
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If its your sector and your PF what flows do you do for your own preflight setup? Might be asking company SOPs !
As i'm using the STD boeing FCOM flows its good to know other different ways !
As i'm using the STD boeing FCOM flows its good to know other different ways !
Boeing went from the "Before Start Checklist to the Line" and "Below the Line" to a "Preflight" and "Before Start" checklist about ten years ago.
Most airlines, at least in the US, use the straight Boeing procedures with just minor tweaks. It's easier to get the FAA to approve it when you say, "That's what Boeing says to do."
Our FCOM, again not a 737, has the preflight flows broken down by PIC and F/O. Once the plane starts moving it switches to PF/PM duties.
Most airlines, at least in the US, use the straight Boeing procedures with just minor tweaks. It's easier to get the FAA to approve it when you say, "That's what Boeing says to do."
Our FCOM, again not a 737, has the preflight flows broken down by PIC and F/O. Once the plane starts moving it switches to PF/PM duties.
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So do most operators still use that before start checklist to the line / below the line?
Right, ok not a 737 pilot! But would be great if a 737 pilot here could share his PIC flows during preflight?
Right, ok not a 737 pilot! But would be great if a 737 pilot here could share his PIC flows during preflight?
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There is only the before take-off checklist before and after the line now on my fleet.
We do however run it from the ECL on the B777, not sure what the differences for the 737 would be but I can have a look.
Before the line checklist incorporates:
Loadsheet received?
Data changes to final load sheet?
If Yes rerun performance and cross check
if No continue
Performance calculations correct for departure point of runway?
Take off brief updated (rebrief any performance issues or MEL items)
Cabin ready received
Transponder to TA/RA
----------------entering the runway line ---------------
Strobes on
Lights On
Cx Weather Radar on
TCAS approach path for departure runway looks clear
Confirm line up or departure clearance
Signal Cabin Crew
We do however run it from the ECL on the B777, not sure what the differences for the 737 would be but I can have a look.
Before the line checklist incorporates:
Loadsheet received?
Data changes to final load sheet?
If Yes rerun performance and cross check
if No continue
Performance calculations correct for departure point of runway?
Take off brief updated (rebrief any performance issues or MEL items)
Cabin ready received
Transponder to TA/RA
----------------entering the runway line ---------------
Strobes on
Lights On
Cx Weather Radar on
TCAS approach path for departure runway looks clear
Confirm line up or departure clearance
Signal Cabin Crew