View Poll Results: Employment Statistics
Employed with ATPL
481
53.44%
Employed with Frozen ATPL
143
15.89%
Unemployed and type rated with ATPL
92
10.22%
Unemployed with Frozen ATPL
184
20.44%
Voters: 900. This poll is closed
Employment Statistics
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 108
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From: scotland
Employment Statistics
In the light of the current aviation job situation, I thought it would be interesting to see what the levels of employment/unemployment amongst PPrune readers was :
Last edited by easondown; 15th May 2002 at 12:02.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
I voted however I think the figures will be spurious because of the limited options. I realise that there is a limited number of options available for the polls.
It opens up a can of worms: How to define 'employed'? Full time? Part time? Very casual? On jet &/or TP? What about piston jobs - even if that's an interim position & there is no intention of remaining on pistons? Airline, charter airline, air taxi, aerial work etc etc...
Does flying instruction count only if it's renumerated?
Also, what about those who don't have ATPL subjects? Admittedly they're becoming fewer with the 'less hassle' option of going straight to ATPL subjects/lack of availability of CPL courses.
What about those who hold a professional qualification but have no intention of working with it? It does happen for some fortunate people with the money & the passion for flying but not the desire to work in the industry.
Just my thought about polls with limited options - the information collected is a bit coarse to be useful.
It opens up a can of worms: How to define 'employed'? Full time? Part time? Very casual? On jet &/or TP? What about piston jobs - even if that's an interim position & there is no intention of remaining on pistons? Airline, charter airline, air taxi, aerial work etc etc...
Does flying instruction count only if it's renumerated?
Also, what about those who don't have ATPL subjects? Admittedly they're becoming fewer with the 'less hassle' option of going straight to ATPL subjects/lack of availability of CPL courses.
What about those who hold a professional qualification but have no intention of working with it? It does happen for some fortunate people with the money & the passion for flying but not the desire to work in the industry.
Just my thought about polls with limited options - the information collected is a bit coarse to be useful.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: scotland
Tinstaafl,
As you said there are a limited number of options on these polls that is why the options are so broad based. I would have put a lot more thought into it if I were publishing a paper or report on the employment statistics - but I'm not, it was just for curiosities sake and I hoped that some people may find it of interest.
As you said there are a limited number of options on these polls that is why the options are so broad based. I would have put a lot more thought into it if I were publishing a paper or report on the employment statistics - but I'm not, it was just for curiosities sake and I hoped that some people may find it of interest.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Eason.., fair enough!
Intruder
In Euro-land - and Oz/NZ, for that matter - our 'certificates' are 'licences' onto which may be added ratings such instructor, instrument, class or type ratings eg single engine <5700kg etc etc etc.
An ATPL is an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, that's all.
The term 'Frozen ATPL' only tends to be used in Euro-land and is nothing more than a Commercial Pilot Licence holder with instrument rating who happens to have also passed all of his or her ATPL exams.
In the UK there is no requirement for a further flight test to be issued with an ATPL. It can be issued on application once the required experience & age limits are met.
Intruder
In Euro-land - and Oz/NZ, for that matter - our 'certificates' are 'licences' onto which may be added ratings such instructor, instrument, class or type ratings eg single engine <5700kg etc etc etc.
An ATPL is an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, that's all.
The term 'Frozen ATPL' only tends to be used in Euro-land and is nothing more than a Commercial Pilot Licence holder with instrument rating who happens to have also passed all of his or her ATPL exams.
In the UK there is no requirement for a further flight test to be issued with an ATPL. It can be issued on application once the required experience & age limits are met.
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 28
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From: all over Europe
The experience limit is 1500 hrs, the age limit I am not sure about.
But in the US and Australia/NZ you don't sit at the control of an airliner before you have around 2000 hrs, I guess that's why the 'frozen' ATPL is unknown there.
European airlines hire applicants directly out of flight school. The reason for this is that it's almost impossible to get to 1500 hrs since there are very few of the typical jobs on light aircraft that exist in other parts of the world. If you want to pay for those hours yourself your father has to be VERY VERY rich...
But in the US and Australia/NZ you don't sit at the control of an airliner before you have around 2000 hrs, I guess that's why the 'frozen' ATPL is unknown there.
European airlines hire applicants directly out of flight school. The reason for this is that it's almost impossible to get to 1500 hrs since there are very few of the typical jobs on light aircraft that exist in other parts of the world. If you want to pay for those hours yourself your father has to be VERY VERY rich...
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Stingray
The 'Frozen ATPL' term has nothing to do with the job market, average or median experience before gaining employment in an airline on multi-crew aircraft, or anything else that differentiates the job market between countries.
It is simply a shorthand way to describe a certain minimum level of qualification & exam result ie CPL & IR + ATPL subjects, sufficient to allow the issue of an ATPL once the required minimum experience is met.
In Oz & (I think) USA we certainly have the 'Frozen ATPL' it's just that a pilot would just say s/he has a Commercial licence (certificate for the US
), instrument rating & has passed the ATP(L) exam(s).
The 'Frozen ATPL' term has nothing to do with the job market, average or median experience before gaining employment in an airline on multi-crew aircraft, or anything else that differentiates the job market between countries.
It is simply a shorthand way to describe a certain minimum level of qualification & exam result ie CPL & IR + ATPL subjects, sufficient to allow the issue of an ATPL once the required minimum experience is met.
In Oz & (I think) USA we certainly have the 'Frozen ATPL' it's just that a pilot would just say s/he has a Commercial licence (certificate for the US
), instrument rating & has passed the ATP(L) exam(s).
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 473
Likes: 3
From: Al tube.
Slightly off the subject and I could be totally wrong, but I seem to recall a few years ago that the rules changed so that to put a new type on your licence over 5700Kg you now require the ATPL writtens but ‘grandfather’ rights exist for CPL holders for ratings that they already have on their licence. Perhaps someone fresh out of their Air Law exams can shoot this down in flames or confirm this?
DIRECTOR
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
Surely the benefit of a frozen ATPL means you do not have to go through the tedium of taking a few more useless exams after a few years of flying. I wish frozen ATPL's were around when I started as I had to go through the expense and time of further exams which I could well done without.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 11
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From: somewhere between layers
well, well
now that we all got off topic......... i like the poll... i'm one of the guys that are Capt type rated on widebodys, ATPL in 4 countrys 7000hrs + and currently unemployed...
I'm interested in what the stats look like in a while..
Cheers
I'm interested in what the stats look like in a while..
Cheers
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 562
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From: Grobelling through the murk to the sunshine above.
Any update on this poll?
There still seems to be a lot of movement between jobs. If I were in an airline at the moment I think I'd stick around to try and get as far from the bottom of the seniority list as possible.
There are still adverts for jobs for type-rated folk, are there that many out there?
There still seems to be a lot of movement between jobs. If I were in an airline at the moment I think I'd stick around to try and get as far from the bottom of the seniority list as possible.
There are still adverts for jobs for type-rated folk, are there that many out there?
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 117
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From: Disneyland
In the US, you can fly commercially including a 747 with a CPL as a co-pilot all day long. The only time you need an ATPL is when you looking to get upgraded to Captain. No one's going to shaft you here (union). You do not need a type rating on your commercial license either as long as you have your initial training for the type of aircraft that you are flying.
We do have frozen ATPL but we don't call it that since it's just a written exam and it's only good for 2 years. Pass your practical ride within those two years or take the test over again (very easy compare to the euro or aussie stuff).
There are no ab-initio pilots in the US, i.e cadets etc. Everyone here paid their dues. By the time you have reached 1500 for ATPL (on your own, i.e. flight instructing, midnight package haulers etc.) you'd either love aviation and flying or you'd left the industry long ago (or die of hunger, which ever comes first). So every US pilots you see flying commercially came up the hard way (or in the process of) or through one of the armed forces branches, and that's no easy task either.
We do have frozen ATPL but we don't call it that since it's just a written exam and it's only good for 2 years. Pass your practical ride within those two years or take the test over again (very easy compare to the euro or aussie stuff).
There are no ab-initio pilots in the US, i.e cadets etc. Everyone here paid their dues. By the time you have reached 1500 for ATPL (on your own, i.e. flight instructing, midnight package haulers etc.) you'd either love aviation and flying or you'd left the industry long ago (or die of hunger, which ever comes first). So every US pilots you see flying commercially came up the hard way (or in the process of) or through one of the armed forces branches, and that's no easy task either.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
Get the green book as fast as you can. It makes no difference if it's a local or JAA licence. For the application of cash the original issuer (the UK CAA for most of us here) will happily issue either!
The reason for the unholy rush to get an ATPL is that the ******s can't change the rules for the majority of pilots (most of whom would have real problem going back to school to learn how to design aircon and braking systems - me included!) who have an ATPL.
The reason for the unholy rush to get an ATPL is that the ******s can't change the rules for the majority of pilots (most of whom would have real problem going back to school to learn how to design aircon and braking systems - me included!) who have an ATPL.
