Heathrow Approach Path
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Heathrow Approach Path
Heathrow landing paths and The Hare & Hounds
My question follows an earlier query on landing paths into Heathrow. This generated some informative replies – for which many thanks - but my thread was hijacked before I had a full answer. So I am trying again – and this time I have done some basic arithmetic and I am providing a navigation aid
I live in East Sheen 7.9 miles due East of Heathrow so I have had plenty of opportunities to observe planes landing on Heathrow South runway. And it is clear to me that landing aircraft approach Sheen over a corridor that I now estimate at half a mile. But when I first mentioned this this in a pub conversation I was told that I am mistaken and that all flights over Sheen are already aligned with the runway centreline .Later on, this line was taken by most respondents.
So let me outline what I see at street level and the quickest way is to Google Barnes Home Guard. Click on its neighbourhood map and look for the Barnes Home Guard, which marks the southern limit of the flight corridor, the Hare and Hounds, an excellent pub on the Upper Richmond Road, marks the centre line of the flight corridor, while Mortlake Station marks its northern limit. You can also use Webtrak, Heathrow Airport’s excellent animated web map, to track the flight paths to aircraft landing at both runways
For me, the most relevant replay to my initial query was provided by a Heathrow Controller who stated that, “all flights into Heathrow are radar controlled. Instructions from ATC include changes of heading, speed and altitude and the position at which aircraft join final approach varies greatly depending on traffic. It may be 8 miles or it may be 15 miles”. This fits with what I see. Sheen marks a transition point where all flights switch to their Instrument Landing System (ILS) on the final approach.
But this is not just a good-natured pub discussion. In Sheen, and elsewhere across West London, by rotating flight approach paths for individual runways those living beneath its flight path gain a welcome respite from aircraft noise. I speak from personal experience. So this leaves one last question. Am I still buying – at the Hare and Hounds, of course?
My question follows an earlier query on landing paths into Heathrow. This generated some informative replies – for which many thanks - but my thread was hijacked before I had a full answer. So I am trying again – and this time I have done some basic arithmetic and I am providing a navigation aid
I live in East Sheen 7.9 miles due East of Heathrow so I have had plenty of opportunities to observe planes landing on Heathrow South runway. And it is clear to me that landing aircraft approach Sheen over a corridor that I now estimate at half a mile. But when I first mentioned this this in a pub conversation I was told that I am mistaken and that all flights over Sheen are already aligned with the runway centreline .Later on, this line was taken by most respondents.
So let me outline what I see at street level and the quickest way is to Google Barnes Home Guard. Click on its neighbourhood map and look for the Barnes Home Guard, which marks the southern limit of the flight corridor, the Hare and Hounds, an excellent pub on the Upper Richmond Road, marks the centre line of the flight corridor, while Mortlake Station marks its northern limit. You can also use Webtrak, Heathrow Airport’s excellent animated web map, to track the flight paths to aircraft landing at both runways
For me, the most relevant replay to my initial query was provided by a Heathrow Controller who stated that, “all flights into Heathrow are radar controlled. Instructions from ATC include changes of heading, speed and altitude and the position at which aircraft join final approach varies greatly depending on traffic. It may be 8 miles or it may be 15 miles”. This fits with what I see. Sheen marks a transition point where all flights switch to their Instrument Landing System (ILS) on the final approach.
But this is not just a good-natured pub discussion. In Sheen, and elsewhere across West London, by rotating flight approach paths for individual runways those living beneath its flight path gain a welcome respite from aircraft noise. I speak from personal experience. So this leaves one last question. Am I still buying – at the Hare and Hounds, of course?
Sheen marks a transition point where all flights switch to their Instrument Landing System (ILS) on the final approach.
During the day, any flight that is not established on the ILS by 8nm from the threshold (roughly overhead Putney in the case of the southern runway) is automatically classed as a "late join" and reported as such in the airport statistics.
For 2012, late joins accounted for about 1% of arrivals. So even if all the offenders were flights coming in over Sheen, that would still mean that more than 97% were already established on the ILS well before they got to you.
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Sheen has no significance in the Heathrow approach procedures. As I said earlier, all flights into Heathrow are radar controlled and the exact points at which flights join the ILS is determined by the radar controller and nothing else. The radar controllers position aircraft on to a "closing heading" such that the aircraft approaches the ILS beam at an angle. The aircraft then established on the beam and continues descent on the ILS towards the runway.
The runways, when landing on westerlies (towards the west) are swapped over at 3pm. Otherwise, one is for landing and the other for departure. This is strictly controlled and all traffic, from north and south, lands on the same runway. When the wind is from the east, the northern runway is for landing and the southern is for departure.
I worked as a Heathrow radar controller for 31 years so I am familiar with the system. However, since I retired some things have changed, e.g. we were not restricted to an 8nm final approach and would often put aircraft on the ILS much closer to the airport.
HTH
The runways, when landing on westerlies (towards the west) are swapped over at 3pm. Otherwise, one is for landing and the other for departure. This is strictly controlled and all traffic, from north and south, lands on the same runway. When the wind is from the east, the northern runway is for landing and the southern is for departure.
I worked as a Heathrow radar controller for 31 years so I am familiar with the system. However, since I retired some things have changed, e.g. we were not restricted to an 8nm final approach and would often put aircraft on the ILS much closer to the airport.
HTH
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Heathrow Appraoch paths
I understood what you said the first time - that flights are folded into the ILS approach under ground control.And I appreciate your experience. So what should I conclude when when I watch a succesion of early morning planes flying precisely in line ahead over may house and a quarter of a mile from the ILS approach path?
So what should I conclude when when I watch a succesion of early morning planes flying precisely in line ahead over may house and a quarter of a mile from the ILS approach path?
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krs. I have absolutely no idea why aircraft should be a quarter of a mile from the ILS. I think you must have your measurements wrong. Long time ago I had the misfortune to have to show round a bunch of anti-noise freaks from Windsor. They swore that aircraft flew down Windsor High Street at 200 feet. I showed them the radar which indicated that aircraft were over a thousand feet above that. Do you think they believed me? Not a bit! They swore that I had fixed the radar!
So what should I conclude when when I watch a succesion of early morning planes flying precisely in line ahead over may house and a quarter of a mile from the ILS
As an frequent "end user" of the services provided by our esteemed colleagues in ATC
I'd be very concerned and very very surprised if inbound to LHR I wasn't established on the assigned ILS localiser by 8 miles...
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As (a now retired) very frequent user of LHR's excellent ATC services, I can concur in what has been written above by DR, HD & Wiggy.
An aircraft flown on autopilot will very accurately track the extended centreline of the runway and not show any significant degree of divergence from it.
Remember though the winds aloft can vary very significantly, from aa 50kt southerly through calm through a 50kt northerly. This will result in the aircraft tracking the centreline but with a heading variation of about +/- 15 degrees from that track.
I wonder if it is you being visually deceived by wind effects?
Another thought .... for you to see the aircraft 8 miles out when they are at 2500ft or so, the weather/cloud base is obviously quite high. Maybe a pilot hand flying the aircraft has slightly diverged from the centreline, although a +/- 300 metre deviation is quite large.
I prefer my first theory on balance.
An aircraft flown on autopilot will very accurately track the extended centreline of the runway and not show any significant degree of divergence from it.
Remember though the winds aloft can vary very significantly, from aa 50kt southerly through calm through a 50kt northerly. This will result in the aircraft tracking the centreline but with a heading variation of about +/- 15 degrees from that track.
I wonder if it is you being visually deceived by wind effects?
Another thought .... for you to see the aircraft 8 miles out when they are at 2500ft or so, the weather/cloud base is obviously quite high. Maybe a pilot hand flying the aircraft has slightly diverged from the centreline, although a +/- 300 metre deviation is quite large.
I prefer my first theory on balance.
I think that between 0600LT and 0700LT you can have traffic landing on both of the westerlies.
But it doesn't really fit with the OP's observation of:
a succession of early morning planes flying precisely in line ahead
I still think the best way to solve the conundrum will be if he gives us dates and times so we can all look at WebTrak for the period in question and see what the radar-derived tracks say.
That should satisfy all parties, unless of course NATS are part of the conspiracy too.
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Requst for examples
Heathrow Approach and The Hare & Hounds
Hi Guys
I just happened to step out of the door moments after reading the latest contribution to this thread and there flying immediately overhead – and passing the Barnes Home Guard – was a TWA flight in scarlet and looking magnificent in the autumn sun.
I have been asked to provide some examples of flights so as I walked I made some quick notes on a scrap of paper – you will have to forgive some possible errors as I can’t read my writing in full. However there is enough here for you to check the details when Webtrak comes out in 24-hours’ time.
To make sense of what you see just use the Barnes Home Guard or Hare & Hounds web sites. I have been so disappointed that no one has yet bothered to use it.
I have a few comments to make but will reserve these for later.
Friday 15 November 2013
Time Flight Where Seen
13.48 TWA Directly over Barnes Home Guard
13.50 BA? Shifting north towards Shrewsbury Avenue
13.53 Between Shrewsbury Avenue & Upper Richmond R
13.50 Small jet overflying Muirdown
13.56 Possibly private jet just south of Upper Richmond Road
13.58 Private jet just south of Upper Richmond Road
14.00 Virgin Exactly Tracking Upper Richmond Road & overflying Café Nero
14.00 – 14.20 Good coffee
14.20 -14.45 Now off-duty but I observe a flock of jets in quick succession tracking the Upper Richmond Road and effectively on Runway Two axis
Hi Guys
I just happened to step out of the door moments after reading the latest contribution to this thread and there flying immediately overhead – and passing the Barnes Home Guard – was a TWA flight in scarlet and looking magnificent in the autumn sun.
I have been asked to provide some examples of flights so as I walked I made some quick notes on a scrap of paper – you will have to forgive some possible errors as I can’t read my writing in full. However there is enough here for you to check the details when Webtrak comes out in 24-hours’ time.
To make sense of what you see just use the Barnes Home Guard or Hare & Hounds web sites. I have been so disappointed that no one has yet bothered to use it.
I have a few comments to make but will reserve these for later.
Friday 15 November 2013
Time Flight Where Seen
13.48 TWA Directly over Barnes Home Guard
13.50 BA? Shifting north towards Shrewsbury Avenue
13.53 Between Shrewsbury Avenue & Upper Richmond R
13.50 Small jet overflying Muirdown
13.56 Possibly private jet just south of Upper Richmond Road
13.58 Private jet just south of Upper Richmond Road
14.00 Virgin Exactly Tracking Upper Richmond Road & overflying Café Nero
14.00 – 14.20 Good coffee
14.20 -14.45 Now off-duty but I observe a flock of jets in quick succession tracking the Upper Richmond Road and effectively on Runway Two axis
If you stand at the north end of Putney Bridge the Heathrow 27L arrivals go straight over you and along Upper Richmond Road, which make them clearly visible when seated in the Hammersmith Stand at the Cottage; if they're landing 27R ie before 3 pm, you don't see them when seated as they're just that little bit further north.
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He probably doesn't understand.... TWA doesn't operate any more.
<<Runway Two axis>>
Runway Two? Where's that?
This thread is going the same way as one earlier in the year. Experts did all they could to answer questions but the originator either wouldn't listen or did not believe them. I think it's time to give up....
<<Runway Two axis>>
Runway Two? Where's that?
This thread is going the same way as one earlier in the year. Experts did all they could to answer questions but the originator either wouldn't listen or did not believe them. I think it's time to give up....
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and a Concorde...
To make sense of what you see just use the Barnes Home Guard or Hare & Hounds web sites. I have been so disappointed that no one has yet bothered to use it.
Is this just a wind-up after all ?
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An audio check on early morning flights
Once again I must commend oooooone respondent for suggesting that I provide evidence to back up my claims. So as I watched PBS’s excellent series on JFK Kennedy this morning at 7am this Saturday morning I realised that Heathrow’s southern runway was particularly busy and so I jotted down the time as each passed overhead. Of course these are audio observations - I certainly was not going to the window every two minutes for a visual check.
Between 07.13 and 08.00 I noted 14 flights roughly every two minutes. There were flypasts at 13,15,17,27,34,35,37,40,45,47,50,52,54,55,57 past 07hrs. And when eventually I glanced out of the window at 8.15, a BA Flight passed directly overhead. It was immediately followed by a second BA flight, then an unidentifiable flight at 8.18 and at 8.19 a flight with a green tail fin. All of these flights were on the southern edge of the Heathrow South landing corridorcorridor this close to Heathrow is wider than you think?
Apparently not Heathrow director has a closed mind
Once again I must commend oooooone respondent for suggesting that I provide evidence to back up my claims. So as I watched PBS’s excellent series on JFK Kennedy this morning at 7am this Saturday morning I realised that Heathrow’s southern runway was particularly busy and so I jotted down the time as each passed overhead. Of course these are audio observations - I certainly was not going to the window every two minutes for a visual check.
Between 07.13 and 08.00 I noted 14 flights roughly every two minutes. There were flypasts at 13,15,17,27,34,35,37,40,45,47,50,52,54,55,57 past 07hrs. And when eventually I glanced out of the window at 8.15, a BA Flight passed directly overhead. It was immediately followed by a second BA flight, then an unidentifiable flight at 8.18 and at 8.19 a flight with a green tail fin. All of these flights were on the southern edge of the Heathrow South landing corridorcorridor this close to Heathrow is wider than you think?
Apparently not Heathrow director has a closed mind
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Just about the most accurate track an aircraft will fly will be when it is on the ILS approaching the runway. The ILS systems at Heathrow are extremely accurate and having worked with them for so long I know that to be the case. The majority of aircraft arriving at Heathrow will be on autopilot on the approach and some will carry out fully automatic landings. Such operations are conducted with extreme accuracy.