one pilot son, one medical son
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Capt. Crosswind:-
As I read that, the onus is upon the company and upon each individual crew member, without a general responsibility for all lying with the aircraft commander.
Article 43, Pre-flight action by commander does not include any injunction to check crew members' duty hours. However, if the fact of one or more members of his crew being out of duty hours, or fatigued to a degree to which they would not be able to perform their duties were to be brought to the commander's attention and he still commenced the duty, he could quite possibly be held criminally negligent and therefore liable as per your post. The company and its directors would, however, also be jointly and severally liable. The offence of corporate manslaughter is still untested in the UK.
From the UK Air Navigation Order:-
Article 72:-
...
(2) The operator of an aircraft to which this article applies shall not cause or permit any person to fly therein as a member of its crew if he knows or has reason to believe that the person is suffering from, or, having regard to the circumstances of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue while he is so flying as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
Article 73:-
(1) A person shall not act as a member of the crew of an aircraft to which this article applies if he knows or suspects that he is suffering from, or, having regard to the circumstances of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
(2) A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft to which this article applies unless he has ensured that the operator of the aircraft is aware of his flight times during the period of 28 days preceding the flight.
Article 72:-
...
(2) The operator of an aircraft to which this article applies shall not cause or permit any person to fly therein as a member of its crew if he knows or has reason to believe that the person is suffering from, or, having regard to the circumstances of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue while he is so flying as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
Article 73:-
(1) A person shall not act as a member of the crew of an aircraft to which this article applies if he knows or suspects that he is suffering from, or, having regard to the circumstances of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
(2) A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft to which this article applies unless he has ensured that the operator of the aircraft is aware of his flight times during the period of 28 days preceding the flight.
Article 43, Pre-flight action by commander does not include any injunction to check crew members' duty hours. However, if the fact of one or more members of his crew being out of duty hours, or fatigued to a degree to which they would not be able to perform their duties were to be brought to the commander's attention and he still commenced the duty, he could quite possibly be held criminally negligent and therefore liable as per your post. The company and its directors would, however, also be jointly and severally liable. The offence of corporate manslaughter is still untested in the UK.
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Command Responsibilty
To: Capt Stable
Thanks for the info.
The UK regs seem to button things up nicely.
No doubt over the years due to BALPA's efforts.
The situation I mentioned was in the distant past (1960's) and the OZ ANRs applied. They certainly then did not cover the subject with the thoroughness of the UK regs.
Thanks for the info.
The UK regs seem to button things up nicely.
No doubt over the years due to BALPA's efforts.
The situation I mentioned was in the distant past (1960's) and the OZ ANRs applied. They certainly then did not cover the subject with the thoroughness of the UK regs.
Earnest: are British airlines "managed", so to speak, by the same species of attorneys and accountants which very often run the US airlines? If so, good luck to pilot union solidarity in the UK (useless without total situational awareness among leaders). Without both, you are 'gator or shark bait waiting to be consumed.
From what I've read in many articles, Southwest Airlines leader, Herb Kelleher, is a rare exception to the reptilian attitudes of so many of our so-called airline "upper managements".
I never knew that the brand new doctors over there had such cold treatment with so little support from the higher ranks-it must be really rough on the brand new nurses, also? Is a nurses' role in the medical profession (US or Britain) about what a Petty Officer's role is said to be in US Naval Aviation, they actually run the operation but never have the more prestigious titles or rank next to their names?
From what I've read in many articles, Southwest Airlines leader, Herb Kelleher, is a rare exception to the reptilian attitudes of so many of our so-called airline "upper managements".
I never knew that the brand new doctors over there had such cold treatment with so little support from the higher ranks-it must be really rough on the brand new nurses, also? Is a nurses' role in the medical profession (US or Britain) about what a Petty Officer's role is said to be in US Naval Aviation, they actually run the operation but never have the more prestigious titles or rank next to their names?
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IO, yes, mostly our airlines are run by lawyers and accountants.
And our hospitals are run by "managers" who, often, have no clinical knowledge at all. Money is the overarching consideration, not patient care, nor the fatigue state of junior doctors, nor the working conditions of the nursing staff.
And our hospitals are run by "managers" who, often, have no clinical knowledge at all. Money is the overarching consideration, not patient care, nor the fatigue state of junior doctors, nor the working conditions of the nursing staff.
Capt Stable, Sir: And so much of the medical system (maybe some airlines too?) is managed by the type of jerk on the BBC show "Waiting For God"?
It is interesting how often we pilots in the US hear about middle management bonuses, possibly for shafting our own passengers?: reportedly paid for cost compliance versus superior passenger service. Can't mgmt somehow quantify the need/expectation for people (who keep us employed) to be allowed to get to the gate, or as often happens, allow the gate agent to keep the main cabin door open so that last minute folks can step onboard? We often, after finishing the "preflight" and "before start" checklists, might still be waiting a few minutes for the two cargo doors to be closed and/or need a pushback crew with tug.
Once at NY's Laguardia Airport, a mechanic told us a few years ago that due to a broken jetway, passengers had been forced to stay on a plane about 30 minutes, in order to shuffle some planes around between gates needed for the early morning departures-if the A-320 had been allowed to park after initial taxi-in, overtime would have been paid to certain employees in order to swap planes in a longer sequence for the later needs.
Pardon my long sermon to the yawning choir. Maybe some US airline middle mgmt types would care to respond?
It is interesting how often we pilots in the US hear about middle management bonuses, possibly for shafting our own passengers?: reportedly paid for cost compliance versus superior passenger service. Can't mgmt somehow quantify the need/expectation for people (who keep us employed) to be allowed to get to the gate, or as often happens, allow the gate agent to keep the main cabin door open so that last minute folks can step onboard? We often, after finishing the "preflight" and "before start" checklists, might still be waiting a few minutes for the two cargo doors to be closed and/or need a pushback crew with tug.
Once at NY's Laguardia Airport, a mechanic told us a few years ago that due to a broken jetway, passengers had been forced to stay on a plane about 30 minutes, in order to shuffle some planes around between gates needed for the early morning departures-if the A-320 had been allowed to park after initial taxi-in, overtime would have been paid to certain employees in order to swap planes in a longer sequence for the later needs.
Pardon my long sermon to the yawning choir. Maybe some US airline middle mgmt types would care to respond?
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Non-Newtonian,
Thanks for the post. It outlines the ridiculous and unsafe demands which can be made on RMO's in the name of 'training',aka slave labour.
I was an RMO nearly 40 years ago and disagree with Mac that it is the ideal system.
Fatigue related mistakes were made. They were not the great old days.The attitude of the health administrators was ridiculous.
In Oz, now those days are over.
We recognise that a sleep deprived individual has the reflexes of an intoxicated ( alcohol) individual.
Such a person should not be in charge of an aircraft / motor vehicle or a HUMAN LIFE.
Cirrus,( retired consultant physician, active pilot)
Thanks for the post. It outlines the ridiculous and unsafe demands which can be made on RMO's in the name of 'training',aka slave labour.
I was an RMO nearly 40 years ago and disagree with Mac that it is the ideal system.
Fatigue related mistakes were made. They were not the great old days.The attitude of the health administrators was ridiculous.
In Oz, now those days are over.
We recognise that a sleep deprived individual has the reflexes of an intoxicated ( alcohol) individual.
Such a person should not be in charge of an aircraft / motor vehicle or a HUMAN LIFE.
Cirrus,( retired consultant physician, active pilot)
Plastic PPRuNer
gee Cirrus, I'm pretty sure I never said it was an ideal system because it certainly wasn't. I do admit to a certain rose-tinted nostalgia though. Also, I'm a bit disturbed by kids who can recite pages and pages of government regs. and who know all about the minutiae of practice management yet cannot percuss a chest and have to be taught empathy. The very strict limits on working hours are now leading to problems of reduced experience so I guess the ideal system still has to be worked out.
