Runway incident at SFO
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Runway incident at SFO
Hi – First Time SLF poster, long timer lurker here. Love this forum.
I was on a United flight (I think it was an A320 from what I remember) from SFO to SNA in November, and I was listening to the cockpit commentary which I always like to do on United. At SFO, usually short haul traffic departs from 1R or 1L, but on this occasion we were taxiing towards 28L/28R which usually accommodate all landing, and long haul takeoff. As we were turning towards 28L, we got a “Cross 28L and line up and hold on 28R” command from the Tower. I was on the right hand side, and I could see a 747 on short final landing. We seemed to be a little slouchy in getting to 28L, and then (I would say 10 to 15 secs after the original Tower command) we got a “Hold Short 28L”. Our pilot immediately responded that she had crossed the threshold of 28L, and the Tower then came back immediately with “Cross 28L and line up and hold on 28R”. We crossed pretty quickly with the 747 looking like it was barreling down on us. Conditions were very clear at the time. At no time did the controller in the tower cancel landing clearance to the 747(usually landing clearance in SFO is given as soon as you go to the Tower on Final regardless of whether there’s activity happening on the runway or planes taking off on 1R or 1L). The 747 landed about 30 to 45 secs later on 28L and we took off on 28R, but a different controller came on to clear us for takeoff.
I have a few questions for pilots and controllers:
1) Where on the spectrum of “Happens every day” to “Very rare” does this fall?
2) Where on the spectrum of “Serious Incident” to “Not even an incident” does this fall?
3) I assume the controller was worried about us not crossing 28L in time, and hence changed her mind to wanting us to hold short. Why then did she not cancel clearance for the 747?
4) Was the fact that the controller immediately changed after the incident just coincidence of just a normal shift change, or would she have been temporarily relieved after an incident like this?
5) Would there be any way to find out if an incident report was filed and/or is that public domain that I could read?
6) Do United pilots and controllers hate that SLF can listen to them?
Thanks!
I was on a United flight (I think it was an A320 from what I remember) from SFO to SNA in November, and I was listening to the cockpit commentary which I always like to do on United. At SFO, usually short haul traffic departs from 1R or 1L, but on this occasion we were taxiing towards 28L/28R which usually accommodate all landing, and long haul takeoff. As we were turning towards 28L, we got a “Cross 28L and line up and hold on 28R” command from the Tower. I was on the right hand side, and I could see a 747 on short final landing. We seemed to be a little slouchy in getting to 28L, and then (I would say 10 to 15 secs after the original Tower command) we got a “Hold Short 28L”. Our pilot immediately responded that she had crossed the threshold of 28L, and the Tower then came back immediately with “Cross 28L and line up and hold on 28R”. We crossed pretty quickly with the 747 looking like it was barreling down on us. Conditions were very clear at the time. At no time did the controller in the tower cancel landing clearance to the 747(usually landing clearance in SFO is given as soon as you go to the Tower on Final regardless of whether there’s activity happening on the runway or planes taking off on 1R or 1L). The 747 landed about 30 to 45 secs later on 28L and we took off on 28R, but a different controller came on to clear us for takeoff.
I have a few questions for pilots and controllers:
1) Where on the spectrum of “Happens every day” to “Very rare” does this fall?
2) Where on the spectrum of “Serious Incident” to “Not even an incident” does this fall?
3) I assume the controller was worried about us not crossing 28L in time, and hence changed her mind to wanting us to hold short. Why then did she not cancel clearance for the 747?
4) Was the fact that the controller immediately changed after the incident just coincidence of just a normal shift change, or would she have been temporarily relieved after an incident like this?
5) Would there be any way to find out if an incident report was filed and/or is that public domain that I could read?
6) Do United pilots and controllers hate that SLF can listen to them?
Thanks!
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Not being in the Tower at the time I can't answer 1 to 4. 5 I don't know, possibly the NTSB site. In respect of 6, listening to the r/t on United is entirely at the Captain's discretion. Some Captains indeed do not care for it and switch that channel off.
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 11th Jan 2013 at 14:27.
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But I made that it landed 30-45 seconds AFTER they had crossed. I must have seen a million aircraft finish crossing runway when the lander was at 2nm. If the lander in this case thought it was dubious he would have gone around..
Sounds like it might have been tight (because of the change in clearance) but frankly not that unusual. As you say the 747 had probably had been given landing clearance a fair way out but there's often 1, 2 or 3 ahead, plus a dozen crossing so it's always "buyer" beware with a landing clearance - if he'd been unhappy no doubt he'd have thrown the approach away.
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Hi Hitchens,
Just about my only qualification here is that, when I need to sleep, I put on KSFO tower (liveatc.net is handy). Something about controllers who end each phrase a half-octave high just knocks me out in a way that a white noise generator can't.
90% of the time, it's as you describe: most departures on the ones, and landings and the heaviest heavies on the 28s. In that situation, there's a rhythm to be maintained: landing traffic needs to keep the speed up past the ones, departures on the ones need to be ready to go (okay, the only cancelled clearance for this I've heard was on channel 9 as well), and departures on the 28s need the numbers for both 28l and r.
When the wind forces everything out 28s, then things get really ti
1. Technically, the controller would have told the 74 to go around if things got too tight. Go arounds are actually fairly common, in the "Happens every day" class for SFO. "Emergency aircraft" of whatever sort is more like once a week (My guess. Again, this stuff knocks me cold)
2. Sounds like "not even". She didn't even ask to expedite crossing. The crew of the 747 did not go around on their own initiative.
Liveatc keeps archives of their feeds for thirty days. If it was something setious, s
Just about my only qualification here is that, when I need to sleep, I put on KSFO tower (liveatc.net is handy). Something about controllers who end each phrase a half-octave high just knocks me out in a way that a white noise generator can't.
90% of the time, it's as you describe: most departures on the ones, and landings and the heaviest heavies on the 28s. In that situation, there's a rhythm to be maintained: landing traffic needs to keep the speed up past the ones, departures on the ones need to be ready to go (okay, the only cancelled clearance for this I've heard was on channel 9 as well), and departures on the 28s need the numbers for both 28l and r.
When the wind forces everything out 28s, then things get really ti
1. Technically, the controller would have told the 74 to go around if things got too tight. Go arounds are actually fairly common, in the "Happens every day" class for SFO. "Emergency aircraft" of whatever sort is more like once a week (My guess. Again, this stuff knocks me cold)
2. Sounds like "not even". She didn't even ask to expedite crossing. The crew of the 747 did not go around on their own initiative.
Liveatc keeps archives of their feeds for thirty days. If it was something setious, s
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Thanks for all your responses.
One thing I find interesting is the concept of landing clearances being "buyer beware", i.e. we're going to clear you to land, but there's still a bunch of stuff going on on your runway or crossing it. Is that an SFO thing, a US thing, or in other countries as well.
One thing I note in say UK, is that clearance is never given until the runway is clear.
One thing I find interesting is the concept of landing clearances being "buyer beware", i.e. we're going to clear you to land, but there's still a bunch of stuff going on on your runway or crossing it. Is that an SFO thing, a US thing, or in other countries as well.
One thing I note in say UK, is that clearance is never given until the runway is clear.
It's a US thing. The controller can clear you to land with other aircraft on the runway (or going to be on the runway) as longer as the weather is better than 800 and 2 miles vis. That's based on their prediction that separation will be maintained. On the other hand, one thing you'll never hear in the US is, "After the landing, line up and wait."
