Another entertaining Russian landing
The first time at Farnborough it was 10 minutes, and even then on the first flying display, they had a compressor stall neccesitating a change of engine. I was tower controller, and as it was an engine on the blind side from the tower, none of us witnessed or heard it, and we were quite surprised when they abandoned takeoff.
I'm told the commentator (the inimitable John Blake) heard it and remarked 'Oh dear, how un-professional'.
I'm told the commentator (the inimitable John Blake) heard it and remarked 'Oh dear, how un-professional'.
The AN-22 that delivered the replacement engine for the 124 executed an entertaining landing, with one set of main wheels on the grass.
Last edited by wub; 25th Dec 2012 at 09:34.
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I welcome any input anyone who is knowledgable about the reason for what appears several fairly large pitch oscillations on short final. Perhaps normal, I just have not seen that before. As well, typically, I have seen a more noseup attitude on final but maybe high wing jets are different.
Last edited by JammedStab; 25th Dec 2012 at 12:23.
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The unusual pitch oscillationshave been given a plausible explanation by the need to commit, as spool up takes too long. What I found impressive was that - after those rapid changes, the actual touchdown was VERY reasonable and the roll out seemed fine. When the video started and it was clear that it was Nice, I was amazed that an An124 would even attempt it (and I'm just a pax) BUT it looked to me like a good airman making the best of a poor situation.
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Mr. Chevvron,
That - ''once they start descent, are committed to landing as the engines take too long to spool up (with a danger of inducing a compressor stall) for a go-around'' - is interesting stuff. No visuals at minimums/windshear/runway incursion/runway change/etc.,etc.,etc. invariably ends in unfortunate headlines? Must be quite an intimidating machine to rumble around in if going around is not an option
That - ''once they start descent, are committed to landing as the engines take too long to spool up (with a danger of inducing a compressor stall) for a go-around'' - is interesting stuff. No visuals at minimums/windshear/runway incursion/runway change/etc.,etc.,etc. invariably ends in unfortunate headlines? Must be quite an intimidating machine to rumble around in if going around is not an option
That's how we were briefed before its first arrival at Farnborough, but I'm not qualified on it so maybe someone who is would like to comment; certainly every one I saw land at Farnborough requested a visual approach and did about a 7 mile final.
The AN22 which delivered the replacement engine did indeed make an 'interesting' visual approach. It was videotaped by a policeman from the tower balcony, (ATC Farnborough may still have a copy in their archives) and I watched it from the same place. We believe it erroneously lined up on the display line markers initially - these were large triangular dayglo markers about 150m north of the runway - and only realised it wasn't the runway when he was over the airfield boundary. Vis was about 8km and he was into sun. He passed overhead the tower (much to my surprise - I was looking to the left where he should have been) cranking it left, touching down well into the runway sideways on on the left side having done a skidding turn at the last moment. The skid marks were visible until the runway was re-surfaced in 2001.
The AN22 which delivered the replacement engine did indeed make an 'interesting' visual approach. It was videotaped by a policeman from the tower balcony, (ATC Farnborough may still have a copy in their archives) and I watched it from the same place. We believe it erroneously lined up on the display line markers initially - these were large triangular dayglo markers about 150m north of the runway - and only realised it wasn't the runway when he was over the airfield boundary. Vis was about 8km and he was into sun. He passed overhead the tower (much to my surprise - I was looking to the left where he should have been) cranking it left, touching down well into the runway sideways on on the left side having done a skidding turn at the last moment. The skid marks were visible until the runway was re-surfaced in 2001.
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I'm sure your briefing was as you tell it, I am just surprised at this - perhaps they reluctantly resort to TOGA if untimely demise really does seem imminent, disregarding the usual slow stabilising of parameters and risking an overtemp or compressor stall, in order to save the day? The unfortunate device must be somehow capable of going around, surely.
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An-124 or An-225?
I don't remember the 124 having problems (or even doing a display) at FY but the 225 yes.
I was on the flight deck of the 225 when it validated both bad Wx and good Wx displays (1990 or 1992 can't remember) and was very impressed with how their ideas of FBW allowed light forces (fingers not fists) and small displacements to offer small to medium sized transport manoeuvrability.
An-124 or An-225?
I don't remember the 124 having problems (or even doing a display) at FY but the 225 yes.
I was on the flight deck of the 225 when it validated both bad Wx and good Wx displays (1990 or 1992 can't remember) and was very impressed with how their ideas of FBW allowed light forces (fingers not fists) and small displacements to offer small to medium sized transport manoeuvrability.
I used to work for a company that operated up to 8 of these monsters through a joint venture, and flew on the flight deck a couple of times.
They certainly required 4 minutes on the runway before takeoff, to stabilise the engines, but I've never heard anything about them being
Indeed, on a charity flight to the Balkans, with a number of the office staff on board, they did a go-around.
Amazingly, they had no fuel jettison system. On one departure from Stansted to Osaka, they lost an engine and spent the next 6 hours in the LOREL hold, on a sunny, cloudless day, burning the fuel load down to landing weight. We got numerous phone calls about it.
They certainly required 4 minutes on the runway before takeoff, to stabilise the engines, but I've never heard anything about them being
committed to landing as the engines take too long to spool up
Amazingly, they had no fuel jettison system. On one departure from Stansted to Osaka, they lost an engine and spent the next 6 hours in the LOREL hold, on a sunny, cloudless day, burning the fuel load down to landing weight. We got numerous phone calls about it.
John it was definitely the '124, as the 225 wasn't even known of over here then.
It was the monday, first display day, not sure what year but it was its first appearance.
I cleared him for takeoff and we waited for him to roll; I presume the inimitable John Blake was keeping the spectators occupied but you couldn't hear the commentary inside the tower. Anyway after about 9 minutes, I saw the flaps begin to travel and thought 'this is it' then it started to move forward but didn't accelerate! Then it continued slowly down the runway and vacated. I believe the FCC in their cabin above us heard the bang - were you not with them? - but we didn't.
Did you get to sit in the flight engineer's seat on the '225 (an ordinary armchair!)? Not positive but it may have been '94, certainly no later.
One year we actually did succeed in sending one round. We had two due in delivering other Russian aircraft and display equipment. The first had unloaded and taxyed for departure as the second was inbound. The tower controller (not me this time, but he died a few years ago so I won't mention his name) decided that as the second one had not started downwind, he had time to launch the first one ahead. He lined it up and cleared it for takeoff as we watched the second one turn downwind towards Woking. We were all quite happy, so we waited, and waited. The second one turned onto final at about 7 miles; still we waited. It got to about 3 miles and still the flaps had not started to travel on the one lined up, so the controller asked the second to initiate a go-around, which the pilot agreed to do! As he climbed away, at about half a mile the first one began to roll, so we were treated to the sight of one just lifting off and the other overhead him turning downwind again! (I have a photo somewhere to prove it but I don't know where it is buried in my attic)
It was the monday, first display day, not sure what year but it was its first appearance.
I cleared him for takeoff and we waited for him to roll; I presume the inimitable John Blake was keeping the spectators occupied but you couldn't hear the commentary inside the tower. Anyway after about 9 minutes, I saw the flaps begin to travel and thought 'this is it' then it started to move forward but didn't accelerate! Then it continued slowly down the runway and vacated. I believe the FCC in their cabin above us heard the bang - were you not with them? - but we didn't.
Did you get to sit in the flight engineer's seat on the '225 (an ordinary armchair!)? Not positive but it may have been '94, certainly no later.
One year we actually did succeed in sending one round. We had two due in delivering other Russian aircraft and display equipment. The first had unloaded and taxyed for departure as the second was inbound. The tower controller (not me this time, but he died a few years ago so I won't mention his name) decided that as the second one had not started downwind, he had time to launch the first one ahead. He lined it up and cleared it for takeoff as we watched the second one turn downwind towards Woking. We were all quite happy, so we waited, and waited. The second one turned onto final at about 7 miles; still we waited. It got to about 3 miles and still the flaps had not started to travel on the one lined up, so the controller asked the second to initiate a go-around, which the pilot agreed to do! As he climbed away, at about half a mile the first one began to roll, so we were treated to the sight of one just lifting off and the other overhead him turning downwind again! (I have a photo somewhere to prove it but I don't know where it is buried in my attic)
Last edited by chevvron; 25th Dec 2012 at 21:18.
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Farnborough 88 it was - didn't the AN-22's arrival provoke a Blake-ism: "Short runways they have here!" "Da, and so wide..."
Possibly but it occured after the daily display so John Blake may not have been in his commentary box (also on top of the tower; it always amazed me how he managed to climb that vertical ladder with only one arm); I know he used to come out with these things at the mid week dinner though.
Last edited by chevvron; 25th Dec 2012 at 21:49.
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Thanks chaps. Consider yourselves right.
I must dig out my old FY stuff and see wot really happened back then!
As to which seat - I sat slightly behind and to the left of the left hand seat on the side console (but don't tell Roger B) - lovely blokes if you admire aviators of the old school.
If you wonder what I mean by old school I mean the generation that made the amazing progress of the 70s and 80s which the world has been living off since then.
I must dig out my old FY stuff and see wot really happened back then!
As to which seat - I sat slightly behind and to the left of the left hand seat on the side console (but don't tell Roger B) - lovely blokes if you admire aviators of the old school.
If you wonder what I mean by old school I mean the generation that made the amazing progress of the 70s and 80s which the world has been living off since then.
There is a series of photos of the AN 22 'arriving' at FY here:
ANTONOV AN22 CCCP-09329 1988 #1 FARNBOROUGH UK | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
ANTONOV AN22 CCCP-09329 1988 #1 FARNBOROUGH UK | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Last edited by wub; 26th Dec 2012 at 12:11.
I recall now, after the radar controller had vectored him to the downwind position and put him over to the tower, for some unexplained reason he did a 360 just south of the airfield, hence the plan view photo.
Last edited by chevvron; 26th Dec 2012 at 21:58.
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I had seen the 124 around quite a bit in my travels, one time in Managua I watched one start engines, it took forever. My guess was it was very heavy because the break-away thrust to stat taxing was enough to blow over a guard shack that was quite a distance away. It was dusk, like Double Hydco had mentioned it took forever my guess was more like 10 minutes to set t/o thrust. The damb thing disappeared into the horizon, must have clipped the fence it was so heavy. I had figured the power up procedure was to heat the engine up slowly for maximum thrust and minimal wear, dunno still a mystery.
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Looks like a typical Russian style landing... joking. Some are OK. No, seriously, the Russian style of landings have a niche style of aiming for the piano keys, rather than the normal, TDZ, giving them maximum LDA.
Although, there is some wind in this video, so maybe some updrafts, I know from operating into windy RU airports, and watching the AN and IL type aircraft land, there is a distinct push-the-nose-down for all of their landings. Even in Boeings and Airbus, they still hold full to their original Soviet trainings and go for the piano keys, makes me smile every time.. seriously, look at the piano keys at certain Russian and CIS airports, check-out the shorter runways and see the touch down marks - I kid u not
Even some of the locals I fly with in Kazakhstan scare the bejeebers outta me, got a 14000ft runway in front of us, and they STILL aim for the piano keys... nose down over the threshold, minimal flare to no flare, brakes on, boards out, then we end up trundling down the runway for half an hour to get to the gate at the other end of the airport.....
Although, there is some wind in this video, so maybe some updrafts, I know from operating into windy RU airports, and watching the AN and IL type aircraft land, there is a distinct push-the-nose-down for all of their landings. Even in Boeings and Airbus, they still hold full to their original Soviet trainings and go for the piano keys, makes me smile every time.. seriously, look at the piano keys at certain Russian and CIS airports, check-out the shorter runways and see the touch down marks - I kid u not
Even some of the locals I fly with in Kazakhstan scare the bejeebers outta me, got a 14000ft runway in front of us, and they STILL aim for the piano keys... nose down over the threshold, minimal flare to no flare, brakes on, boards out, then we end up trundling down the runway for half an hour to get to the gate at the other end of the airport.....
