Damaged Engine secured by seat belts
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2010
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From: Papua New Guinea
Damaged Engine secured by seat belts
Hello all, I'm new here but am trying to get an accurate answer a question that I have not been able to get on another forum. This photo has been floating around the internet for years and has been associated with a number of hoax stories.
Does anyone have the real story of what happened here with this engine?
Thanks,
Does anyone have the real story of what happened here with this engine?
Thanks,
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
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From: Blighty
Couldn't open the pictures, but I suspect it's the FOD damages JT9 pictures which seem to do the rounds regularly. A 747 can do a three engine ferry. In the case of the JT9, it has to be 'gagged' which also involves preventing the N1 stage roating in the case of fan blade damage. Using cargo strops is the recommended procedure.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Florida
... prevent windmilling (to avoid damage due lack of oil pressure) ?
Joined: Feb 2002
Aviation Qualifications: AME
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From: UK
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 3
From: UK.
If a four engine jet aircraft has an engine failure, it may be more economical to carry out a 3 engine ferry flight to a maintenance base than to freight another engine, parts, tools (some very large), engineers etc to the aircraft location.
Provided that a list of procedures is observed, it is perfectly legal to take off and fly the aircraft on three engines.
As has been stated, it is highly undesirable to have the failed engine rotate in flight. This is prevented by 'spragging', that is: by some means stopping the fan from rotating. I've seen it done by jamming some wooden staves between the blades and tying them together with wire. Seat belt extensions seem as good a means as any although, personally, I'd like to see the buckles wired closed.
Before anyone asks: No passengers. Even as a company FO with wife, we were refused travel on a VC10 3E ferry many years ago.
Provided that a list of procedures is observed, it is perfectly legal to take off and fly the aircraft on three engines.
As has been stated, it is highly undesirable to have the failed engine rotate in flight. This is prevented by 'spragging', that is: by some means stopping the fan from rotating. I've seen it done by jamming some wooden staves between the blades and tying them together with wire. Seat belt extensions seem as good a means as any although, personally, I'd like to see the buckles wired closed.
Before anyone asks: No passengers. Even as a company FO with wife, we were refused travel on a VC10 3E ferry many years ago.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 3
From: UK.
Thanks, Metro man,
My stories come from some time ago. In our company a 3E ferry crew had to have a sim training session immediately before carrying out the flight. It was all treated very seriously with, of course, an empty aircraft.
I do not think that they should be banned but, since the airport operator has no control over the quality of the airline operation, I can understand their reluctance to place their head in the noose of blame if all goes wrong.
My stories come from some time ago. In our company a 3E ferry crew had to have a sim training session immediately before carrying out the flight. It was all treated very seriously with, of course, an empty aircraft.
I do not think that they should be banned but, since the airport operator has no control over the quality of the airline operation, I can understand their reluctance to place their head in the noose of blame if all goes wrong.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3
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From: Papua New Guinea
Poster's #1 and #2. You really no how to throw the sarcasm in and NOT make a person feel welcome. Next time just don't bother responding.
For all the rest, your comments are appreciated. The Snopes and other supplied link do NOT actually direct you to a FACTUAL story and I could have just as easily done a Google search on my own to find that out. What I'm looking for is someone who has FIRST hand knowledge of this incident.
Still looking for some real answers to match up to the pictures.
Thanks.
For all the rest, your comments are appreciated. The Snopes and other supplied link do NOT actually direct you to a FACTUAL story and I could have just as easily done a Google search on my own to find that out. What I'm looking for is someone who has FIRST hand knowledge of this incident.
Still looking for some real answers to match up to the pictures.
Thanks.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Smogsville
I doubt you'd find anything, as it was not an incident, if the A/C did a 3 engine ferry (no pax) from an airfield with no engineering support to the most suitable airfield the only way to lock the N1 is to strap the blades to outlet guide vanes as in the pic, they are not seat belts and it's clear rubber strips are under the straps to prevent the straps from being damaged.
What you should search for is the Boeing recommended technique to secure an A/C engine for a 3 engine ferry when engineering is not available to remove the blades to prevent N1 from spinning.
What you should search for is the Boeing recommended technique to secure an A/C engine for a 3 engine ferry when engineering is not available to remove the blades to prevent N1 from spinning.
To three engine ferry a RB211 you have to remove the fan blades and fit a fairing over the core intake. It is proberbly much the same proceedure on the CF-6 and JT-9.
You can also ferry a JT-9 with the fan blades "Gagged". In this proceedure you tie the fan blades to the stators behind it. The approved tool for this looks like a very long passenger seat belt compleate with the buckle assembly!. I have seen "Shock, Horror" report of this in the "Gutter press" . You know the thing "Aircrafts engine held together with seat belts". But it is an approved M.M. proceedure for the JT-9 . The other thing with this method of ferrying is you have to gag the core to prevent it windmilling. This is done buy removing the hydralic pump and fitting a gag to the pump drive.
You can also ferry a JT-9 with the fan blades "Gagged". In this proceedure you tie the fan blades to the stators behind it. The approved tool for this looks like a very long passenger seat belt compleate with the buckle assembly!. I have seen "Shock, Horror" report of this in the "Gutter press" . You know the thing "Aircrafts engine held together with seat belts". But it is an approved M.M. proceedure for the JT-9 . The other thing with this method of ferrying is you have to gag the core to prevent it windmilling. This is done buy removing the hydralic pump and fitting a gag to the pump drive.
Joined: Sep 2010
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From: earth
Mod pls transfer this to Eng & Tech
They are straps that are manufactured and certified for this purpose only. I also strapped a Tower Air JT9 on ACFT 617 in KMIA for ferry to KJFK. Wrong forum, should have asked the pro's in the first place.
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Gotta grow where your planted
Still like to see the pic's
C19 here is my story.
I met the aircraft on taxi-in at FRA and the engine was already secured with the strap kit.
According to the Flight Engineer, seems too much fuel was loaded for a heavy departure somewhere hot down range.
The AC was taxied to a make-shift engine run area to"burn off" the excess fuel.
In the process a sign or fence was ingested creating the FOD damage. S#it Happens
It was then set up to 3 engine ferry flight to FRA then on to JFK.
They secured the fan using a strap kit and pads thenoff it flew to FRA.
The outbound flight engineer asked me to perform the required "three serviceable engines for a ferry flight preparation inspection"or he would not fly.
After pulling 3 chip detectors out and they all lookedlike a Chia Pet. I said no thank you.
LH Technical folks stepped in ... then came the LBA.
One month and several engine changes later itdeparted.
I met the aircraft on taxi-in at FRA and the engine was already secured with the strap kit.
According to the Flight Engineer, seems too much fuel was loaded for a heavy departure somewhere hot down range.
The AC was taxied to a make-shift engine run area to"burn off" the excess fuel.
In the process a sign or fence was ingested creating the FOD damage. S#it Happens
It was then set up to 3 engine ferry flight to FRA then on to JFK.
They secured the fan using a strap kit and pads thenoff it flew to FRA.
The outbound flight engineer asked me to perform the required "three serviceable engines for a ferry flight preparation inspection"or he would not fly.
After pulling 3 chip detectors out and they all lookedlike a Chia Pet. I said no thank you.
LH Technical folks stepped in ... then came the LBA.
One month and several engine changes later itdeparted.
