Another flight, another question!
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Another flight, another question!
Morning PPRuNers
I flew into London Luton on Monday with easyJet. I experienced something that I am sure is routine for you guys, but was the first time for me.
After braking on the landing roll, the pilots did a 180 degree-turn on the runway, taxied back up the runway a bit and then exited. My question is: did they do this because they passed the first exit (presumably they didn't manage to slow sufficiently to use it?), but didn't want to go all the way to the end of the runway to use the exit there? I'm afraid I don't know which direction we came in from, thus the runway in use. Also, would you need ATC permission for this manoeuvre / confirmation that there was no other aircraft on short finals? Just curious. It was fun!
I flew into London Luton on Monday with easyJet. I experienced something that I am sure is routine for you guys, but was the first time for me.
After braking on the landing roll, the pilots did a 180 degree-turn on the runway, taxied back up the runway a bit and then exited. My question is: did they do this because they passed the first exit (presumably they didn't manage to slow sufficiently to use it?), but didn't want to go all the way to the end of the runway to use the exit there? I'm afraid I don't know which direction we came in from, thus the runway in use. Also, would you need ATC permission for this manoeuvre / confirmation that there was no other aircraft on short finals? Just curious. It was fun!
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London Luton doesn't have any taxiways that lead right up to the end of either runway, so at the end of each runway is a 'turning circle' which is used to turn the aircraft 180 degrees and face in the right direction, which is what I assume you did. For places like Luton it won't need specific clearance as it's the only way to turn around on the runway, but places like Manchester (on 23L) where there is a taxiway 'loop' at the bottom it usually requires clearance.
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750XL: Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify: on the outbound flight, we used the turning circle at the end of the runway. However, on the return flight (described above), they did not use the turning circle after landing. We turned on the runway itself.
I've flown into Luton (yes, I agree it's definitely not in London) quite a few times, but I'm fairly sure this was the first time I experienced this manoeuvre.
I've flown into Luton (yes, I agree it's definitely not in London) quite a few times, but I'm fairly sure this was the first time I experienced this manoeuvre.
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The turning circle is at the end of the runway, aircraft tend to stop well before that and an Airbus can happily be 180-ed on a runway like Luton. There would be no need to go all the way to the end. The same happens at London City every day
I once pax'ed on a Caledonian L1011 from LTN (we are going back a bit!), and we definitely used the turning circle, and also most inches of the TORA upon departure 
(which was to LCA on a hot August day with around 400 POB).
(which was to LCA on a hot August day with around 400 POB).
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The longest wheelbase aircraft that can turn comfortably on Luton's standard width runway is the 757. The 767-200 can theoretically be turned, but a Britannia Airways crew put the wheels on the grass trying it, dug in, and I think they forbad the manoevre after that.
When Court Line operated TriStars out of Luton, they had sets of transit marker boards at each turning circle. The idea was to keep going straight ahead into the circle until the flight deck was abeam one set, then turn forty-five degrees left to line up on the next set, and when you couldn't see any pavement in front, initiate a full-lock right turn to line up for takeoff. The marker boards were taken away some time after Court Line went bust.
When Court Line operated TriStars out of Luton, they had sets of transit marker boards at each turning circle. The idea was to keep going straight ahead into the circle until the flight deck was abeam one set, then turn forty-five degrees left to line up on the next set, and when you couldn't see any pavement in front, initiate a full-lock right turn to line up for takeoff. The marker boards were taken away some time after Court Line went bust.
Last edited by Georgeablelovehowindia; 26th Jan 2012 at 08:22.
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They must have landed longer than usual as in the 4+ years or so I've operated out of Luton, I only ever once saw someone miss the normal turn off for either end of the runway, and that was a biz jet . . . .
I'd say ATC base their spacings on you making these exits, otherwise you can expect a call to expedite the backtrack!
Luton's good fun tho, especially on a gusty day onto 08 . . .
I'd say ATC base their spacings on you making these exits, otherwise you can expect a call to expedite the backtrack!
Luton's good fun tho, especially on a gusty day onto 08 . . .
When Court Line operated TriStars out of Luton, they had sets of transit marker boards at each turning circle. The idea was to keep going straight ahead into the circle until the flight deck was abeam one set, then turn forty-five degrees left to line up on the next set, and when you couldn't see any pavement in front, initiate a full-lock right turn to line up for takeoff. The marker boards were taken away some time after Court Line went bust.
The 747 can turn a lot tighter than other widebodies due to it's body gear steering. Doing a 180 on a standard 45m wide runway isn't an issue. One company I flew for had B747s and A340s. The B747s were used on some routes because they were into airports with taxying issues and the 747s were more manouevreable.
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Dan W said:
Whilst I agree with the fact that the turning cirlce is impressive, my manuals state that the minimum turning circle is 153ft/46.6 metres, so have to disagree with it not being an issue.
Bearing in mind that the 153/46.6 numbers are demonstrated by Beoing test pilots with no room for error. I would suggest that your average line pilot would prefer north of 50 metres, especially if damp/wet (let alone slippery) with any risk of nose wheel slippage.
Doing a 180 on a standard 45m wide runway isn't an issue.
Bearing in mind that the 153/46.6 numbers are demonstrated by Beoing test pilots with no room for error. I would suggest that your average line pilot would prefer north of 50 metres, especially if damp/wet (let alone slippery) with any risk of nose wheel slippage.
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They must have landed longer than usual as in the 4+ years or so I've operated out of Luton, I only ever once saw someone miss the normal turn off for either end of the runway, and that was a biz jet . . .
And just in case there is any potential to misunderstand my comments: I am not criticising the pilots. I am just curious.
Thanks for the replies.
While most aircraft types can do a 180 on a 45M wide runway it makes more sense to go to the end if you miss the turn off and turn on the turning circle as it gives you more room for error ( ie. less chance of a wheel in the mud) and is less stressful on the gear and tyres.
We fly into LTN regularly with A300s and usually make the turn off, but if it's wet and we are at max landing weight we sometimes go to the end. Again less stress on the aircraft and less wear on the brakes.
We fly into LTN regularly with A300s and usually make the turn off, but if it's wet and we are at max landing weight we sometimes go to the end. Again less stress on the aircraft and less wear on the brakes.
I'm not LTN based, but I fly the A319/320 from there on occasion.
It should be noted that the runway turnoffs at Luton are not RET's (rapid exits) as they have at STN or LGW, but 90 degree turns, and have to be taken at a fairly slow speed.
So, if you are going a little fast for the exit, then a quick backtrack of the runway is probably the quickest way off. The A319 can turn on a sixpence.
The "brake harder" moment you mention was possibly the pilots overriding the auto-brake by applying pedal pressure themselves?
DH
It should be noted that the runway turnoffs at Luton are not RET's (rapid exits) as they have at STN or LGW, but 90 degree turns, and have to be taken at a fairly slow speed.
So, if you are going a little fast for the exit, then a quick backtrack of the runway is probably the quickest way off. The A319 can turn on a sixpence.
The "brake harder" moment you mention was possibly the pilots overriding the auto-brake by applying pedal pressure themselves?
DH
