Pre-jet transatlantic flights
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Pre-jet transatlantic flights
Hi, my wife (who is not particularly interested in aviation) asked me about flights across N Atlantic, say London > NY, in the days before Comet, B707 etc. Did they go direct, stop at Gander or Shannon, what type of aircraft etc.
I am pretty ashamed to say that I was not very sure... Google helps to a certain extent but pretty much stating First Flights/records, or special WW2 troops and equipment flights with long-distance-adapted military aeroplanes.
So from the wealth of knowledge and experience on here, can someone give me a short account of pre-jet established routes, aircraft used and approx dates?
Thanx to all.
I am pretty ashamed to say that I was not very sure... Google helps to a certain extent but pretty much stating First Flights/records, or special WW2 troops and equipment flights with long-distance-adapted military aeroplanes.
So from the wealth of knowledge and experience on here, can someone give me a short account of pre-jet established routes, aircraft used and approx dates?
Thanx to all.
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On London-New York the Britannia (turboprop), Stratocruiser, Super Caonstellation and DC-7 (powerful but unreliable piston engines) could normally do the trip nonstop.
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Saturn Airways DC7
I did New York to Gatwick non-stop on a Saturn Airways DC7 in 1965. The return was supposed to be Paris to New York non-stop (same airline and airplane) but we had to stop at Gander for fuel. I think re-fueliing was common on the east to west trip, but not so much on the west to east. Long flight (11 hours as I recall on the NY to London), no movies, etc. But when you are 18, you don't mind. And "prop lag" seemed to be just as bad as "jet lag" is today.
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Went to the States twice on a Britannia in the late 60s on affinity group charters where you had to be a member of the society that chartered the flight - in this case the local Greenhouse Society... I'll swear no one on the flight actually owned a greenhouse - I didn't!
First flight was 1966 from MAN to JFK with a fuel stop at Gander on a British Eagle Brit. Second was the next year on a Transglobe Brit to Boston, also with a fuel stop at Gander. Both eastbound flights came back non stop.
Full of students so we made our own entertainment, although we were asked to retake our seats at one time as there were too many people congregating at the bar and the C of G was being affected.
Good times indeed
First flight was 1966 from MAN to JFK with a fuel stop at Gander on a British Eagle Brit. Second was the next year on a Transglobe Brit to Boston, also with a fuel stop at Gander. Both eastbound flights came back non stop.
Full of students so we made our own entertainment, although we were asked to retake our seats at one time as there were too many people congregating at the bar and the C of G was being affected.
Good times indeed
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Bermuda Sky Queen
If you go back as far as 1946 - there is an amazing account of the Bermuda Sky Queen flying boat on a trip Shannon New York - has been mentioned earlier - A true account of an overloaded Boeing
flying boat out of fuel and ditching in stormy seas in mid Atlantic
and eventual rescue.
Can probably be googled - theres also a book or two.
flying boat out of fuel and ditching in stormy seas in mid Atlantic
and eventual rescue.
Can probably be googled - theres also a book or two.
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In the summer of 1960, and again in 1961, I was a member of a group of students from Bristol University who went to Canada for the summer. For some reason about which I was never quite clear it was cheaper to charter a plane from London to New York and then a Greyhound bus to Toronto. The round trip cost the princely sum of £70.
In both years the outbound flight was in a KLM Super Constellation from Heathrow to Idlewilde (as it then was) with refuelling stops in Shannon and Gander. The return, after 12 weeks in various parts of North America, was non-stop in a DC7C. I have often wondered why we had different types for the two flights - was it just a coincidence that the same types haapened to be available when we wanted to travel, or was it some arcane aspect of KLM's aircraft utilisation?
In 1960 most of us were so unused to air travel that we didn't realise that beer and other drinks were available in flight, and that they were free! We also had the experience of a request from the flight deck to move our sing-song forward as the plane was getting too tail-heavy.
In both years the outbound flight was in a KLM Super Constellation from Heathrow to Idlewilde (as it then was) with refuelling stops in Shannon and Gander. The return, after 12 weeks in various parts of North America, was non-stop in a DC7C. I have often wondered why we had different types for the two flights - was it just a coincidence that the same types haapened to be available when we wanted to travel, or was it some arcane aspect of KLM's aircraft utilisation?
In 1960 most of us were so unused to air travel that we didn't realise that beer and other drinks were available in flight, and that they were free! We also had the experience of a request from the flight deck to move our sing-song forward as the plane was getting too tail-heavy.
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The thread has raised an interesting point in my mind concerning duty hours. I remember flying a scheduled London - Vancouver return in the the very early 60,s in I think, a BOAC DC7C. I might be wrong but but through the mists of age related senility I am convinced that they were both non stop. No doubt I will be corrected, but it was one of my first overseas trips I did, but it does stick in the mind.
Anyway all these transatlantic flights would have been over 12 hours in length and the aircrews duty time would have exceeded this. Did the airlines have at that time supplementary crews besides navigators, on board ? What were the duty times involved ? Also the navigation aids would have been nothing like the sophisticated devices of today
I was reading recently the report of the Maritime Central DC4 accident in Quebec in the middle 50,s. The plane had departed London for Montreal, stopped in Iceland to refuel, overflown Gander, and were over 20 hours into the trip when the plane crashed apparently due to thunder cloud activity in the air. One assumed the crew was Pilot 1 Pilot 2 Navigator and Radio Operator and it was thought that fatigue played a part in the decision making processes of the crew. I understand that the Canadian authorities then imposed flight duty limitations after this accident.
I remeber also the ultra long range JFK- TLV Brittania flights conduced by El Al with a Welsh Captain as PIC how long would these flights have been?
Anyway all these transatlantic flights would have been over 12 hours in length and the aircrews duty time would have exceeded this. Did the airlines have at that time supplementary crews besides navigators, on board ? What were the duty times involved ? Also the navigation aids would have been nothing like the sophisticated devices of today
I was reading recently the report of the Maritime Central DC4 accident in Quebec in the middle 50,s. The plane had departed London for Montreal, stopped in Iceland to refuel, overflown Gander, and were over 20 hours into the trip when the plane crashed apparently due to thunder cloud activity in the air. One assumed the crew was Pilot 1 Pilot 2 Navigator and Radio Operator and it was thought that fatigue played a part in the decision making processes of the crew. I understand that the Canadian authorities then imposed flight duty limitations after this accident.
I remeber also the ultra long range JFK- TLV Brittania flights conduced by El Al with a Welsh Captain as PIC how long would these flights have been?
Last edited by bigal1941; 18th Jan 2012 at 11:07. Reason: 2 wrongs do not make it right
There's a whole history of Transatlantic prop-aircraft flights, which got going a year or so after WW2, and disappeared very rapidly when a relatively few jets swept all before them from 1959 onwards, so there were about 14 years when they were dominant.
Crews actually operated from Europe to the USA in one go and made whatever fuel stops the conditions of the day required, using a range of potential points of which Shannon and Gander are only the best known. As aircraft performance improved reliable nonstops started to become more common, firstly eastbound when the DC7 came along, and then westbound when the improved DC7C and Lockheed Starliner were introduced. These had a heyday measured in months before the jets took over (the very first of these often had to stop as well, though within a year proper intercontinental models took over by 1960-61 with flight times which are the same as today).
Because of the slower speed and stops, westbound flights were typically overnight, as well as eastbound, and thus you needed twice the number of aircraft for a daily service as when the jets came along. In fact, when you returned to base in the morning there very often were too many snags to attend to before the afternoon departure, so you might need three times as many aircraft.
At first flights were (theoretically) first class only, later in the 1950s economy came along, and this was done initially with separate aircraft for each class - often the latest type was on the premium service, with the previous type demoted to the economy service. In time mixed-class aircraft gradually took over. Some carriers also had sleeper beds, which were stowed in the day up against the cabin roof.
If you have never travelled in a 4-engined piston airliner the vibration and noise was something else, and with it often taking 16 hours for the trip passengers might take days to get over it, particularly if they had the misfortune to be seated abeam the propellers. Crews on the aircraft of the period often started to suffer from hearing problems in later years.
Crews actually operated from Europe to the USA in one go and made whatever fuel stops the conditions of the day required, using a range of potential points of which Shannon and Gander are only the best known. As aircraft performance improved reliable nonstops started to become more common, firstly eastbound when the DC7 came along, and then westbound when the improved DC7C and Lockheed Starliner were introduced. These had a heyday measured in months before the jets took over (the very first of these often had to stop as well, though within a year proper intercontinental models took over by 1960-61 with flight times which are the same as today).
Because of the slower speed and stops, westbound flights were typically overnight, as well as eastbound, and thus you needed twice the number of aircraft for a daily service as when the jets came along. In fact, when you returned to base in the morning there very often were too many snags to attend to before the afternoon departure, so you might need three times as many aircraft.
At first flights were (theoretically) first class only, later in the 1950s economy came along, and this was done initially with separate aircraft for each class - often the latest type was on the premium service, with the previous type demoted to the economy service. In time mixed-class aircraft gradually took over. Some carriers also had sleeper beds, which were stowed in the day up against the cabin roof.
If you have never travelled in a 4-engined piston airliner the vibration and noise was something else, and with it often taking 16 hours for the trip passengers might take days to get over it, particularly if they had the misfortune to be seated abeam the propellers. Crews on the aircraft of the period often started to suffer from hearing problems in later years.
Last edited by WHBM; 19th Jan 2012 at 13:37. Reason: Typo - for WW1 read WW2
Prestwick was also used as a refuelling stop westbound if the tracks were northerly. (Transatlantic tracks vary with the pressure circulation over the oggin).
Legend has it that there was a notice in the engineers' office which said "Aircraft on the North Atlantic will be filled to full tanks unless the captain requests extra fuel!"
Not as daft as it sounds. Apparently if, having filled the tanks, you let the aeroplane stand for a couple of hours it might be possible to get another 100 gallons or so in. Might make all the difference!
Legend has it that there was a notice in the engineers' office which said "Aircraft on the North Atlantic will be filled to full tanks unless the captain requests extra fuel!"
Not as daft as it sounds. Apparently if, having filled the tanks, you let the aeroplane stand for a couple of hours it might be possible to get another 100 gallons or so in. Might make all the difference!
BOAC 1958 North Atlantic timetable :
http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...58/ba58-03.jpg
Don't believe the ones that appear nonstop. They were likely to stop, just didn't do passenger pickup so they could stop where they wished.
http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...58/ba58-03.jpg
Don't believe the ones that appear nonstop. They were likely to stop, just didn't do passenger pickup so they could stop where they wished.
There's a whole history of Transatlantic prop-aircraft flights, which got going a year or so after WW1, and disappeared very rapidly when a relatively few jets swept all before them from 1959 onwards, so there were about 14 years when they were dominant.
A Runyonesque Character
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Ah, WHBM (from the small print in your link), the days when £26 16s 0d was $75!
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Yes, SSK, that BOAC timetable is the best read of the week.
And when the passengers did meet up in the pub, the men were wearing suits and the ladies were wearing hats. Those indeed were the days.
And when the passengers did meet up in the pub, the men were wearing suits and the ladies were wearing hats. Those indeed were the days.
I would have liked to be around them...real aeroplanes.
I have a book my grandfather gave me, written by a woman who flew in the 40's & 50's on some interesting routes... I believe some were flying boat trips. Them were the days....!
If you have never travelled in a 4-engined piston airliner the vibration and noise was something else, and with it often taking 16 hours for the trip passengers might take days to get over it, particularly if they had the misfortune to be seated abeam the propellers. Crews on the aircraft of the period often started to suffer from hearing problems in later years.
Planemike
